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kansky
10 Posts |
 Posted - 12/05/2005 : 3:38:06 PM
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Are gyros permitted for ESL contests? I can't find any AMA or FAI rules prohibiting them. Should they be allowed?
I have noticed that I can land very well in still air, but the slightest bit of turbulence on approach makes it much harder. My sleep deprived brain is too slow to react.
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kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2005 : 5:33:57 PM
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As far as I know they are allowed.
The DLG guys used them for a while to help improve launch consistency. Some still do.
Should they be allowed for TD to help with landings?
This is a tough question. I guess it depends on how well they work for this application. This could turn into the dreaded skeg vs no skeg debate.
Tom |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2005 : 12:53:57 AM
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I guess it would be harder to enforce than a skeg rule, but what would the fun be after everyone installs a couple of gyros, Jan, now you know what everyone will be thinking every time you nail a landing 
Jose |
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Dave Walter
18 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2005 : 3:06:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kansky
My sleep deprived brain is too slow to react.
Or, you could just go to bed a little earlier and skip the gyro. 
Dave
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kansky
10 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 12:15:49 AM
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I found a discussion Mark had on RCgroups a while back. He basically concludes that a yaw-rate gyro and presumably a pitch rate gyro work as if you had a larger tail volume. He also states that our gliders have "massive amounts of roll damping". This would lead you to believe that a larger tail would be all you need.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300261&page=2&pp=15&highlight=gyro
I'm not sure I understand that. Granted, if there is no turbulence the plane with the better damping will stay on track better, however in this situation we are considering the response of the plane to turbulence. In that case, I don't want to quickly adjust and reorient into the new turbulence induced wind direction, as a larger tail would. I want it to stay on the same orientation with respect to the ground. At the same time I don't want to damp pilot inputs.
A roll-rate gyro driving the ailerons should keep the wings from banking due to gusts. Gyros on pitch and yaw would do the same for induced pitch and yaw due to turbulence. I don't think either would reduce responsiveness to stick input. Right? |
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kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 12:37:09 PM
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Jan,
I think you are correct in your assesments. From my limited experience with gyros on HL models I think you will find that they make the plane behave differently than you are use too. For me I think I would be fighting the gyro all the time since I would be anticipating required inputs that the gyro has already addressed. I guess the best analogy I can think of is learning how to drive with ABS after 20 years of driving without it. Once you get use to it, its great, but the transition can be tricky.
Tom |
Edited by - kiesling on 12/08/2005 12:37:50 PM |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 1:22:19 PM
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On a day with a lot of turbulence, say landing in Jersey on a windy day, the pilot is intensely focused in using all four axis on his/her radio. Having two gyros to help the pilot with two control axis to achieve a compound damping effect might be asking too much of the gyro and your self, that would be like having two timers behind you telling how to move the stick, but worst with access to your radio :-|
How about giving control of one axis to the gyro/s allowing the pilot to concentrate in the remaining axis and tasks, where the pilot sets the plane into final landing approach, flip a switch giving control of say roll to the gyro then the pilot would focus on pitch, yaw and flaps, this way you are aware of direct influence of the gyro or if you trust your gyro that much, to give full roll control where your roll input would be meaningless ...
I say we try it wit Dave Walter’s new Supra
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Edited by - F3jeb on 12/08/2005 1:31:31 PM |
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kansky
10 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 1:24:23 PM
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I mis-read Mark's statement. He doesn't say that a yaw gyro acts as a larger tail volume. He says that a yaw gyro acts as a longer tail boom, with a proportionally smaller tail volume. In other words, the product of tail boom length times tail volume is constant. If you could keep it light enough, would a longer tail boom with a smaller tail volume be a worthy goal in an airplane design? How does the gust response change as you play with this? I suspect the longer boom-smaller tail setup will be less influenced by gusts with equivalent handling in smooth air.
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kansky
10 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 1:32:39 PM
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Jose,
The rate gyro will only take out stuff you haven't commanded. Think of it this way: With stick input zero, the rate gyro will hold the roll rate at zero. If a gust comes along, the plane will drive the ailerons to keep roll-rate at zero and the wing will try to stay level. If I push the aileron stick the gyro will fight to keep the roll-rate at some constant non-zero value. The pilot will still have full control over the roll rate.
The way I see it is we have two conflicting flight regimes. In thermal mode we want to plane to show all disturbances so we can read the lift. On landing we want to minimize response to disturbances. I don't think you can achieve both goals without changing the stability equation somehow. Gyros would be the way to do it.
Jan
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 3:27:32 PM
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Right, and you can have a gyro on a helicopter, which can be made to hover, (a helicopter with out a gyro could not hover by its self), you can then give the controls to someone who has never flown a helicopter and that person will proceed to over ride the gyro causing the helicopter to crash, unless they are smart enough to let go of the controls.
I don’t think is possible to train yourself to have no input at all in order to let the gyro do it’s work while landing, pilots react to visual queue and we would constantly be over riding the gyro.
Or maybe I still don’t get how a gyro works.
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kansky
10 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 4:42:27 PM
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The gyro removes or reduces the disturbance due to the gust. You never get the visual cue, so you don't do anything to the stick. As far as you know there was no gust.
I found that there is a German gyro that is made for this. It's called the "Fuzzy gyro".
http://www.acteurope.de/Fuzzyenglisch.pdf
-Jan
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 11:18:47 AM
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According to the documentation the pilot is able to change 'stability equation' at the turn of a dial, and according to the manufacturer many competition pilots use it… which brings an interesting point, Tommy, are gyros allowed in FAI contests?, are people using them during FAI contest?
quote:
“…This gyro will not work against your stick controls, it has an inbuilt deflection, which deflects the gyro linearly out 100% from 0% to 50% stick throw. The stick feeling stays, as it was without gyro…
… Nearly all German and Swiss glider competition pilots are using our wing gros, and most of the normal pilots too......
Best regards
ACTeurope
Klaus Westerteicher
www.acteurope.de
ACTeurope
Karlsruher Straße 20
75179 Pforzheim
Tel. 07231 4246805
Fax 07231 4246806”
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Edited by - F3jeb on 12/09/2005 4:37:29 PM |
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soarkraut
24 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 2:02:00 PM
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| sounds like there will be some of those at next years contests. Maybe one more reason to slide over to the dark side (RES). Here I come Stew...... |
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kansky
10 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 2:39:13 PM
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Looking at the 2004 F3J WC results: Germans won both the Senior and Junior team competitions. Was it a landing contest or a flying contest Tom? They don't post landing scores on the web site.
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kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 2:47:19 PM
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As far as I know no one uses a gyro in FAI contests. I don't recall reading any rules banning them specifically. While the documentation for the above gyro does specifically list thermal flying as one of the applications, I'm not sure I see the benefit for while you are actually thermaling. For landing I could see where it might help. That said, the gyro still won't stick the nose down for you at the right time which is really the most important part. So Pete, I think you will not have anything to worry about if gyros become popular. From what I've seen you can hold the line as well as any gyro assisted pilot.
Tom |
Edited by - kiesling on 12/09/2005 2:48:22 PM |
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soarkraut
24 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 2:51:19 PM
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wow, a compliment from #1 ( Thanks Santa)
Just kidding on the Gyro thing, I am hooked on the open class. everything else, like two meter, is just something to do while I wait for the open contest. |
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stew swanson
16 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 4:30:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pete
sounds like there will be some of those at next years contests. Maybe one more reason to slide over to the dark side (RES). Here I come Stew......
Welcome ! if you want we can proabably get Bill Grenoble to
show up more often if we have a few flying RES. Let me know and we can
compete in RES as an unoficial contest within the contest as Bill and I do at times.
Stew |
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kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 6:45:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kansky
Looking at the 2004 F3J WC results: Germans won both the Senior and Junior team competitions. Was it a landing contest or a flying contest Tom? They don't post landing scores on the web site.
It was both. You have to do both well to win the WC. But remember, the FAI tape uses meter increments, so the landing is more about the timing than the location for F3J. I don't think a gyro would help with the timing.
Tom |
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paul
13 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2005 : 7:06:56 PM
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| the LISF has had a long-standing rule of not allowing thermal flying assisted devices. we might have to look at the gyro issue. easy route is to ban them for our contests. not as easy to police as thermal indicators though. paul |
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soarkraut
24 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2005 : 8:16:59 PM
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Are the “long standing rules” written down somewhere??
Would be nice to read thru them, I do not know all the rules. Just things I pick up from the guys………….some is mostly “bull”, I would suspect.
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flyeslhost
158 Posts |
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Topic |
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Landing Gyros?
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