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F3jeb
103 Posts |
 Posted - 02/18/2006 : 1:17:46 PM
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Read an interesting comment on a one of the other forums regarding shorter which lines. Someone was commenting contests (F3J) are becoming landing competitions since most ships now days can make the times; I have to say that is about par with the ESL.
Ignore the benefits of how much line and space we would save… who cares, I am talking about making it challenging to make rounds.
What do you think would be an adequate line length, LISF had to shorten the lines last year because of some field restrictions and I didn’t notice much of a difference.
I say lets shorten the lines, but by how much?
Bring it on!
Jose |
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Phil Barnes
100 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2006 : 2:15:25 PM
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I would say we just let each CD make that decision for himself as we always have. I certainly wouldn't want the ESL to dictate something as personal as that.
I also am not a follower of the "its only a landing contest" way of thinking. If the weather conditions are real nice with tons of lift and light winds then you do see a smaller spread in the scores but it is rarely a case that most contestants make all of their times. If conditions really are too easy then the CD can call longer times or shorten winch lines if he wishes. |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2006 : 6:35:21 PM
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I don¡¦t think that is a personal issue, it just like any other issue, as open for discussion as contest format, although the CD makes the decision at the contest, the final decision is made by the people in form of attendance. No one is making this decision as an institution here.
Thank you for making my point, I don¡¦t recall last time a CD shorten the line because people where making all their times, personally if I make 10, I¡¦ll make 12 and 15¡K I don¡¦t want to be flying a 20 minute task at noon with 100* heat and 95% humidity, specially on MOM, where times are more irrelevant, so where maybe there will be a run away or one in the group who doesn¡¦t make their time, but the rest are coming in with in seconds of each other (which by definition is called a landing contest)
So, I am not looking for a format that would get me wood, I have beaten all of you (with the exception of Josh and Tom) at one time or another fair an square and enjoy doing it :) - but I don¡¦t subscribe to the mentality of ¡"well he bit me because I had an off day"
Today¡¦s plane are so good, all sand bagging is done in the air, standing in line "tying up your shoe" or "checking the radio" is a lost art, lets bring it back.
It is not the same thing to fly a 20 minute task in good air, than to launch with a short line in the same air, and this is why I bring it up. Heck lets fly a 45 minute round, if you make it what makes think I wont.
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Edited by - F3jeb on 02/18/2006 6:39:23 PM |
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soarkraut
24 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2006 : 8:16:56 PM
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| I am with Phil on this one. Let each club run the task. The club members do all the work, let them decide how to run the contest. When we come to yours, you can do what you like. |
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Phil Barnes
100 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2006 : 2:07:56 PM
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Jose
It sounds like we agree on point one: The format (line length, max times, landing task, etc.) of the contest is set by the CD and is subject to discussion.
Lets explore the second point: I frequently hear the complaint "it's only a landing contest". I disagree with this sentiment. I think it is rarely the case that many people get all of their times at an ESL contest. It only happens when the weather is real nice. Looking at last year's results, which are posted on this site, only the CASA Open looks like a landing contest. All of the other contests had a pretty good spread in the scores. What's wrong with having a "landing contest" about once per season when the thermaling weather is really nice? Maybe a lot of people made all of their times but they had to work to do it and they had fun in the process.
I would ask you: how do you define "a landing contest"? What percentage of the contestants need to make all of their times before you apply that name to the contest? Is it "only a landing contest" when one guy makes all of his times or do you need maybe 10% of the contestants to make all of their times before you apply that name? Using your definition, how many ESL contests were "just landing contests" last season?
What about the beginners and sportsman level contestants? Should we make every effort to make the tasks really difficult so that not even top experts can fulfill the tasks? Or should we except one or two contest days per season where many experts and a few sportsmen make all of their times and feel good about it? I think most experts can except an occasional easy day before they will except frustrating all of the sportsmen to the point that they all give up.
I think it is appropriate to make high level contests like team selections, world championships, major regional events, etc. very difficult in terms of tasks but maybe most ESL contests should be a bit more sportsman friendly. I like the current balance at the ESL contests. I never feel like the tasks are too easy. Maybe you, Mike, Tom and Josh are on another level and find the tasks too easy. I'll bet you can find a few people who think the tasks are too hard. Sounds like it might be a good balance. |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2006 : 2:25:49 PM
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Let me add to Phil's points, with which I agree.
Shortening the winch lines also makes launching a lot harder. Sportsmen will find the launches much more intimidating with short lines bacause there's little give in the lines.
Anker |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2006 : 10:23:11 PM
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quote:
Lets explore the second point: I frequently hear the complaint "it's only a landing contest". I disagree with this sentiment. I think it is rarely the case that many people get all of their times at an ESL contest.
Phil,
If you hear the complaint frequently, why would you dismiss the complaint by others, especially if there are reasonable amount of people complaining frequently, this kind of thinking makes some people walk away from competition, I personally tend to dismiss it as dismissiveness:)
to be honest I personally don’t care if it is or is not a landing contest, the question is why do CDs increase task times, for many reasons, but the one heard most often, is because “it is too easy” or “the scores are starting to bunch up”, why are do they bunched up at times, well because there is a majority who are making their times, and where do they become “debunched”?, yes, on landing – hence the term “landing contest” – so I would tend not to dismissed everyone, and define it just like anyone else.
You can look at the scores all you want but that is no indication of average task time of today vs. the average task time of four years ago, which has increase due greatly to better plane design and performance
quote:
It only happens when the weather is real nice. Looking at last year's results, which are posted on this site, only the CASA Open looks like a landing contest. All of the other contests had a pretty good spread in the scores. What's wrong with having a "landing contest" about once per season when the thermaling weather is really nice? Maybe a lot of people made all of their times but they had to work to do it and they had fun in the process.
I don’t disagree with working hard to earn your place, again you are misrepresenting me, and the only difference is what kind of hard work we are going to do. You say fly a 15 minute task, I say shorten the line a fly an 8 minute task
quote:
I would ask you: how do you define "a landing contest"? What percentage of the contestants need to make all of their times before you apply that name to the contest? Is it "only a landing contest" when one guy makes all of his times or do you need maybe 10% of the contestants to make all of their times before you apply that name? Using your definition, how many ESL contests were "just landing contests" last season?
I think I answer that, but again is not how many contests where “landing contest” last year, but how will we managed landing contests, you seam to think is only because of weather conditions and piloting skills that bring such scenario, but in general ships have gotten better, a lot better, and next year and the year after that you will see another spike, when everyone gets on board with the Supra. In general scores will start to get bunched up more often again, so when do you think 10 minute tasks will be the norm, and to increase the spread in the scores the CD will have to go to 20-30 minute task?
quote:
What about the beginners and sportsman level contestants? Should we make every effort to make the tasks really difficult so that not even top experts can fulfill the tasks? Or should we except one or two contest days per season where many experts and a few sportsmen make all of their times and feel good about it? I think most experts can except an occasional easy day before they will except frustrating all of the sportsmen to the point that they all give up.
Again, I am talking about the longer task time increase, you might think there haven’t been any, but when I stared 8 minutes where rear and now the seam to be the norm. Before, you could break a spread with an 8 minute round, try doing that today. Again, I fly what ever the CD chucks at me, just like you, but when are we are going to start looking at alternatives so contest are not just a couple of rounds and everyone goes home.
quote:
I think it is appropriate to make high level contests like team selections, world championships, major regional events, etc. very difficult in terms of tasks but maybe most ESL contests should be a bit more sportsman friendly. I like the current balance at the ESL contests. I never feel like the tasks are too easy. Maybe you, Mike, Tom and Josh are on another level and find the tasks too easy. I'll bet you can find a few people who think the tasks are too hard. Sounds like it might be a good balance.
Again, I am not the one increasing the task times in general, CDs are. A shorter line would be an alternative to longer task times.
I remember my first contest, where our friend John Huff, called a 12 minute task a day with low clouds and wind, as a Sportsman or first contest I didn’t think that was friendly (today I can’t wait to hear John start a contest), but I went out there flew it, got my time and went back to my tent, I guess some experts dismissed that as luck, I guess some people want to shot the door behind them the minute they become experts, I don't tent to think of "sportsman" as invalids, I think of them as future experts.
I see friendliness as the guy who will approach you and say welcome to the ESL and shake your hand, and as I recall Josh was the only one at LISF, and the other was Gordy at DBSF, how did Gordy know I was a new ESL member at the time? Gordy who doesn’t fly ESL! (<rhetorical statement) whether you like to admit it or not, in the ESL you have to earn the right to be there by proving you can fly, that is ok with me, but not for others.
So, my definition of a “sportsman friendly” contest is different than yours. Tasks don’t attract average pilots, people do! Case in point, look at the PoleCat challenge maybe we should look at what he is doing right.
If I hadn’t had the CRRC clan with me, and no one would have approached me like Josh and Gordy did, I don’t know if I would have walked away. So next time you see us joking around at our tent, trying to keep it light, with our friends from NJ (that includes you too Mike, didn’t mean to exclude from the top three nore you Dave #2 in the country but I am sure some would like to dismiss that as luck) – in stead of thinking “there they go again” – think “what am I doing to lighten the mood”.
I understand joking around can be a hazardous profession and it’s not for everyone but it brings friendly competition and in turn keeps people coming.
So friendly or unfriendly, tasks on average are getting longer
Jose |
Edited by - F3jeb on 02/19/2006 10:31:19 PM |
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Dave Walter
18 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2006 : 11:24:20 AM
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Jose,
I'm not sure if I understand all your arguments here. I would like to reiterate what Anker pointed out: shortening the lines makes launching more difficult, and sometimes hazardous. There's not much give in 200+ lb winch line. I've been surprised a few times at LISF, tapping the pedal to pretension the line and practically yanked off my feet. I can do without that.
As for reducing the number of "landing contests", I wonder how many times I've mentally declared the day will be a landing contest based on the beautiful conditions, and then STILL didn't make all my times? Yes, the planes are better and stay up longer in dead air, but it's rare to fly in truly dead air (we did it one round at the NATS, late in the day), most of the time you still have to contend with sink.
No matter how we play with the contest format, have you noticed how the same guys keep getting to the top of the score sheet? That's because they've learned to do a lot of things well, fly in wind, fly in dead air, time their landing approach, stop on a dime. You want to reduce the frustration of having to land well to win a contest? Well, if you shorten the lines, you now have to deal with the frustration of finding lift from low altitude. Will that make you feel any better about the contest? I think most people would find that far more frustrating than blowing the landing.
My preference: long winch lines.
Dave
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2006 : 2:48:21 PM
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Oops...
The views I posted above do not represent those of the ESL, individuals mentioned, or any particular group, however they represent my own. Farther more, I do not mean to imply any exclusion/involvement of individuals nor of groups by any specific comment mentioned above.
Thank you
Jose |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2006 : 2:54:07 PM
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I do agree with the safety issues you bring up, as well as few other concerns, such as the impact it might have on some contestants who choose to fly ships which would be disproportionally affected by the shorter line as well as the frustration it might bring to some, as mentioned by Anker
Although my first message was provocative in nature, and I did segue from something stated in a different forum to our forums with the “landing contest” argument, I place less importance on it’s definition, than on the fact that ships have gotten better over time, individual hang times have increase, and the increase % is affected by weather conditions, which has been managed at individual contests by increasing the task times on average
Thank you guys I appreciate all of your comments.
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Edited by - F3jeb on 02/20/2006 3:01:30 PM |
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mikel
106 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2006 : 5:36:03 PM
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As long as there are open winch contests, there are no excuses for not being able to make your time. The probability that you have to launch into bad air or that someone is not already marking the air is pretty low or your choice.
If you don't want a landing contest, then take up F3b ;-) |
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jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2006 : 8:56:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mikel
As long as there are open winch contests, there are no excuses for not being able to make your time. The probability that you have to launch into bad air or that someone is not already marking the air is pretty low or your choice.
If you don't want a landing contest, then take up F3b ;-)
Well I didn't make a lot of times last year... After LISF1 I had a tough time reading air ... Totally lost it at the nats...
But if I remember you too had a tough time at LISF 2... so while everyone should make there time, not every one always makes their time... Don't let Mike shame you into thinking your no good if you don't make it... we all miss once in a while.. I missed a lot last year and Mike and Tom still miss.... it's what gives you the ability to get a win...
Jeff Steifel |
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mikel
106 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2006 : 9:22:52 PM
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LISF is MOM, not open winch. So you're objective is to fly longer than the rest, not get your max. And then there are times when I decide to do something different just to be different instead of taking the easy route. And sometimes there is just too much sink in between. Makes flying interesting.
Or you can watch Colin do exactly the opposite of whatever Jeff tells him. ;-) |
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flyeslhost
158 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 01:00:05 AM
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| I don't know Mike, I certainly have seen you self implode a couple of times... ;-) let the psychological warfare begin. |
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Shorter winch lines for the ESL
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