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aeajr
477 Posts |
 Posted - 07/07/2010 : 1:26:22 PM
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This thread has been created as a location where members, any member can post ideas about the ESL, and how it might evolve over time.
Feel free to post your thoughts and ideas.
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Best regards,
Ed Anderson
Long Island Silent Flyers
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Edited by - aeajr on 07/07/2010 8:00:56 PM |
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2010 : 08:06:22 AM
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ED,
I was trying to post this in the ESL forum you started on where to take the league. For some reason I can not sign in today. Maybe you could post it for me?
Thanks
Not sure this belongs here or not... I find that I enjoy flying MOM contests more than open winch. I'm still undecided weather I like random or ranked groups but that's another day.
Anyway having flown with 4 to 12 man groups I think that 4 is a bit small and if ESL can afford 1 or 2 more winches we should go for it. Maybe we can put a donation box at the rest of the years contests to offset some or all of the cost.
Kerry |
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
Long Island Silent Flyers
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2010 : 08:08:08 AM
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Kerry,
Thanks for the input.
ESL has 4 winches. How do you feel about using club winches to supplement ESL winches to have larger flight groups.
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Best regards,
Ed Anderson
Long Island Silent Flyers
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rc4fun
7 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2010 : 08:54:51 AM
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| That would be great. But I would guess that not all clubs have comparable winches & batteries. I know that CASA club winches are not up to current contest standards. |
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mikel
106 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2010 : 09:19:46 AM
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Of course the real problem with more winches is more winches and batteries to move around, repair, maintain.
Everyone should say thank you to the guys who move these things around and fix them. Especially Steve with the launchequipmentmobile..... |
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ljb0001
37 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2010 : 11:49:38 AM
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I would love to fly larger groups. It may allow us to fly more rounds though we may still be limited by the number of timers available.
The problem is hauling the equipment around. I transport the winches for a lot of the contests and I would have problems carrying even 1 more winch. I would have to leave Joanne behind and then I'll be stuck in the scoring tent! :-)
If we can organize a reliable way to haul 2 more winches, batteries, chargers and turnarounds, I would be all for it. I would also be more than happy to help offset the cost. I'm sure many more would too.
Luis |
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rc4fun
7 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2010 : 12:33:42 PM
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OK I got it. SO we need to chip in to get Steve a new launchequipmentmobile with trailer ;-)
Somehow I don't see Joanne being left behind to be replaced by a battery.
So, how many clubs have and are willing to supply a winch or 2 for the contest they host?
YES - I try to thank the guys doing the work every time! I know it is a chore. |
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rc4fun
7 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 11:05:01 AM
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To start some discussion on 2011 contest dates I am authorized to put in for the CASA open on 9/10/2011 and 9/11/2011.
Kerry
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 8:01:11 PM
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Kerry,
May I suggest you start a new thread just dedicated to discussions on contest dates. Then we can publish that out to the clubs.
If you ahve problems, let me know and I will set it up.
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Best regards,
Ed Anderson
Long Island Silent Flyers
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jaizon
4 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 6:44:36 PM
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MOM has been the format in the ESL since I joined and I like it. At the first Daniel Boone contest on the second day we flew seeded MOM, with experts and sportsmen divided. I found this to be an even better variation of the MOM format. It allowed for very exciting finishes in both sportsman and expert, with both divisions being decided in the final flight of both classes.
Now there has been some talk of going beyond the seeded MOM that we flew at DB and trying a seeded MOM but without the division of expert/sportsman while flying (the two classes would still be divided at the end for points purposes).
I believe it is the sportsmen who might be more reticent about such a change as they might (mistakenly, IMHO) believe it could impact them more negatively.
What are the advantages or disadvantages of such a format?
In short, the non-class division MOM allows for people to fly in the contest against others who are flying at the same skill level for that day. That means you may fly against experts, even if you are a sportsman, but on that day are flying at a higher level, and vice versa in the other direction, e.g., at Charles River some experts finished below many sportsmen on Sunday. In this format the groups become more uniform throughout the day based on actual flying that day, making the flying more exciting, making it more of a toss up as to who will win a particular group. Sportsmen who might be reluctant to fly against experts will not generally be flying against them unless they are flying really well. And what's the problem? I believe you can learn a lot just from flying in a group with others whose skill set is beyond your own, which may happen for some sportsmen for part or all (!) of any given day.
A fair and balanced way of setting up the initial seeding has to be worked out. This might be related to a pilot's position in the points standing or some other metric. In any case I suspect by round 3 things will smooth themselves out. Another by product of this format is that it will allow for ESL contests to reflect the LSF concept of no division in a contest. This in and of itself is not a reason to adopt this format, but it's not a bad thing either.
The negative side of the argument begs the question - there is no software to set up such a contest, so how could we run it? This is an excellent question. In brief, without such a program it cannot be done effectively (if at all). That is why someone within the ESL is writing such a program as we speak. In any case it is a problem that can be solved without too much difficulty.
I do believe this one change could bring a new excitement to the ESL. And I strongly support trying it and urge other ESL members to consider this change.
Preston
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rc4fun
7 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2010 : 07:14:05 AM
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The biggest motivation I know for flying everyone in a single seeded MOM is LSF points. We have been told by Mr.Deck that if there are 2 groups of seeded MOM they Must be counted as separate contests as far as LSF is concerned! You can not even consider raw scores even when everyone is flying the same task. Hey, I'm not sure I understand the logic of that either.
What it means is that if there are 19 experts and 9 sportsmen flying separate seeded MOM then the experts needing 20 competitors and the sportsmen needing 10 are all out of luck.
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2010 : 07:17:20 AM
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Two topics here - Winches and Seeded MOM
Winches
The ESL provides winches for the TD contests, but not all clubs use them. I just flew TD at Charles River and ESL winches were not used. Worked fine. As far as I know ESL winches are a convenience offered by the league but not required.
Not all clubs have enough winches to run a TD contest. In that case the ESL winches become very important. But if a club has enough winches and batteries and chargers, then the ESL winches need not be a constraint.
Oh, there may have been more differences between the winches then if we were using ESL winches, but no one seemed concerned. Pilots quickly find "the winch" that they like. Even with the ESL winches I find that I gravitate toward one of them because of ground position, how the foot pedal works, etc.
A few years back, it was the responsibility of the hosting club to make arrangements to get the winches. Usually it was handled by someone who was going to the previous contest who was also going to that contest. Logistics will always be an issue for the TD division, but it can be worked out.
Seeded MOM - mixing pilots.
I oppose mixing Sportsman with Experts. As a new pilot in the league I was more willing to fly because I was only going to be flying against pilots of comparable talent. In the beginning I could not make my times and hitting the tape was a major event. But that is how it is for many sportsman. So I did not feel so bad and felt I still had a chance. If I hit a couple of landings I could score well.
Mix a pilot like that into he experts and he quickly becomes discouraged and may drop out of the league. So, this has little to do with how the scoring system works and everything about people. Imagine being a Novice pilot and landing out of the landing zone every flight and every one else is landing in the 90s. It is embarrassing and embarrassed people don't come back.
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Best regards,
Ed Anderson
Long Island Silent Flyers
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Duane
24 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2010 : 09:02:24 AM
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I agree about keeping Sportsman and Expert competition separate. Scores should be normalized separately for each class, and separate trophies awarded.
However, for LSF contest points, I believe it used to be the case for open winch contests that you could combine Sportsman and Expert based on raw scores to increase the number of pilots counted in calculating contest points. This could allow a contest to be counted if there weren't enough pilots in your class, or possible result in more points if you did well compared to the Experts.
Now that ESL is running MOM contests, with Sportsmen and Experts flying in separate groups, we're not able to combine raw scores any more. This means, as a Sportsman, I am unable to count most of the ESL contests I attend towards LSF III, as it requires a minimum of 10 pilots in the contest. No problem if you can combine the classes. However, few of the contests I have been to lately have had 10 or more Sportsmen.
I've been told the answer is for me to fly in Expert (since there are usually 10+ Experts, and it will help the other Experts with LSF points). I don't really feel ready to do so, but will in order to get LSF points. However, I cannot move to Expert until next year. |
Duane
CASA, FARM, LSF III #7971 |
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jaizon
4 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2010 : 11:56:25 AM
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Good point RC4Fun.
Ed made some points off thread, but on this topic that I responded too in an e-mail to some ESL members, whose addresses I had.
I am reposting here for those who I didn't reach.
Ed,
Let me address a few of your points.
"The very nature of having an Expert, sportsman, novice arrangement is that each pilot flies with those within his division."
While that may be true for all ESL contests I can remember, (with the exception of one DB contest this year, that rain delayed Saturday I believe, where we did
indeed fly all together because of low numbers by the time we started), that does not de facto mean it is the best way to organize contests. Determining what is best, or better, or more fun, I admit, is going to be somewhat subjective, but it's worth looking into. Before going any further I would gladly concede that Novices can
be left out of this mix and fly the whole contest against each other so that should no longer be an issue. As far as Expert and Sportsmen flying against
those within their division, the Undivided MOM (UMOM) does not preclude that from happening the majority of the time. Some pilots would fly up or down a class only if they were flying very well or very poorly (and not Experts who were flying well that day, of course). Which brings me to your second point.
"Thus, Novice pilots never have to fly against sportsman and sportsman don't fly against experts."
Leaving the Novice pilots out as mentioned above, you are assuming that this is always a good thing, but I think if we scratch a little deeper, especially in the UMOM format, the foregone conclusion as to what is best is not so obvious. For example, the argument could be made that
staying within your own group gives you a better chance of success, vis-a-vis winning wood. But UMOM keeps those divisions for the purposes of wood and points. How about your learning curve? Divided does give you the opportunity to learn, but UMOM, as previously defined, allows you to fly
against better pilots if that's how you're flying that day, and IMHO, you can learn a lot more by flying with better pilots, than you can fumphing around the sky trying to reinvent the wheel, which in fact that can be downright frustrating. Both ways can be fun and both allow for learning and improvement. So the division is maintained for the points race and trophies, but blurred a bit for flying, though not at the top end and bottom end.
"If we are going to mix them and have them fly against each other then why have them in the first place?"
I have been trying to address this point in a logical and thoughtful manner. Ed, we are not just going to "mix them" willy nilly, I hope that you can see that at this point. If you read the proposal carefully you will see that it's not that way at all and I'm not sure why you are characterizing it like that. There will still be an Expert division and a Sportsman division, separate points race, separate trophies. But it does give some pilots the opportunity to "fly up" without the commitment of jumping up. This is not a bad thing in my opinion.
"I am a Sportsman pilot and I do not want to be flying against experts. If I want to fly against experts then I will declare myself expert."
But there are some Sportsmen who would not mind flying against Experts for a round or two, if they are flying at that level on any particular day, without having to declare themselves Expert. If it's primarily about the points and trophies and not about the flying and the commraderie of the league, then your point is well taken.
"One of the ways I have been successful in bringing new Sportsman and Novice pilots into the league is that they will only fly within their groups. If we change that, then I lose this as a recruiting tool."
Not at all, though I'm not sure how we can really determine what brings someone into the league and what would keep them out, e.g, cost of competing, family obligations, the economy, etc. Too many variables and only anecdotal evidence to support a conclusion one way or the other.
But let's see what a pitch to a prospective member might sound like. "We have two primary divisions, Expert and Novice. They are given separate awards and points for each contest. They have their own points race. Most people come into the league as novices for at least a year, some much longer. This new format, UMOM, blurs that distinction a bit during contests by seeding the contestants based on how they are flying that day. So it is possible that if you are a novice and are really having a good day, you might for a round or two (or more) fly with some experts, but this has no effect on your finish in Sportsman or your points as they are kept divided at the end of the day. It can be a great opportunity to learn from pilots who may be better than you without sacrificing your status as a Sportsman. Kinda cool, really."
Preston
P.S. I have not addressed the issue of LSF contest tasks and UMOM, but it seems that changing the format will allow for those trying to go up the ladder to do so without having to commit to Expert as the contests would meet Jim Deck's criteria without changing the structure or the league. A big benefit with little downside, if any.
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ljb0001
37 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2010 : 12:40:33 PM
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Preston,
A few thoughts.
First a clarification. At the DBSF contest this year, I grouped the one Novice pilot we had with the Sportsman pilots for the purpose of reducing the number of flight groups. It really does not make sense to have a Novice pilot flying all by himself. The only MoM contest I'm aware of that has combined Sportsman and Expert pilots in the same groups was this year's SKSS. I personally did not agree with this format because the composition of some of the groups was heavily biased one way or another. I flew in one round against 2 Sportsman and 1 Novice. One of the Sportsman did not launch because of radio problems. The second sportsman popped off at about 50 feet and had to fly it. The Novice launched and landed within about 1 minute. That left me up in the air collecting 1000 points flying against myself!
Regardless of format flown, ESL will score Sportsman and Expert pilots separately. I agree with you that flying a combined Seeded MoM format will not change the way we score the contests.
I also agree with you that only the best flying Sportsman is likely to fly in an Expert group. There are some anomalies in how this could happen that I'm not sure I like but conceptually it is true. Regardless, as rounds progress the groups will start to make more and more sense.
I can see both points of view with regards to combining the classes in a seeded MoM contest. Perhaps the solution is to leave it up to the sportsman pilots participating in a given contest to decide: Combined or Separate groups. I think, however, that we should try at least one combined Seeded MoM contest to actually experience how it flows and how the groups work out. This may be happening a lot sooner than you might think!
I personally prefer to keep the classes separate for a couple of selfish reasons when running a contest. I can generate groups for one class while the other class is flying. This buys me necessary time to manage the groups and allows for a smoother flowing contest. Did you notice there was no waiting in between rounds at the DBSF contest? This is not the norm for a seeded MoM contest. Typically, you have to wait for all the scores to come in and to be posted, new groups have to be assigned and posted and then the flying can resume. My understanding is that it is not uncommon for no new groups to be launched for 10 to 15 minutes at a time. This did not happen at DBSF. We launched group after group until we ran out of timers and kept doing so all day long with no pause. Separating the classes is what allowed me to do this. The result was Seeded MoM ESL Style: No Cards, No Waiting, Lots of Flying and Tons of Fun!
As I said, those are my selfish reasons for preferring to keep the classes separate while flying Seeded MoM. I will however, be happy to defer to what the pilots want.
Luis
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2010 : 10:38:54 PM
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I am no expert on scoring. I will leave that to you.
I am highly successful at bringing people into our club and into the ESL. I am working that angle constantly and one of my selling points is that the weaker pilots will not be flying with the Experts.
Personally, I prefer to fly with other sportsman. I know I am not up to the standards of the Experts and not having to fly with them gives me the opportunity to do well and feel good about my performance as measured against my peers.
Let's take this past weekend.
I flew poorly on Saturday so I would have been in bottom groups anyway.
Sunday I did well, but only because I was flying against other Sportsman. But if I were seeded in with experts I would have done poorly. So Sunday I came home with 2nd place flying against Sportsman. Felt good. And I took 5 points which means I had the 5th best performance of the day overall but that was only because I was flying with other sportsmen.
If I had been seeded with experts my results would have been far different. I would have finished much lower, no points and no 2nd place. Why? Because I was seeded with Experts. Same flying, same performance, very different results because who who I was flying against.
But frankly I can deal with that personally. My focus is the new pilots and new ESL members. If they are experts, then it does not matter. But what of the guy who is trying is first big competition. He is flying a lesser plane, lesser skills and perhaps is flying alone, not among friends. And we stick him in with the experts?
I care about the new pilots. I am constantly working with new pilots in our club and reaching out to the broader community, to the new pilots. I write articles to help new pilots. New pilots is my primary focus in our club. And brining new pilots into the League is one way we will sustain and grow the League and help these new pilots to improve their skills.
So I will advocate for the new pilots in every case. Perhaps my concerns are missguided, but I can tell you that when I started, as a Sportsman, I was not a strong pilot. I don't think I had a 3 mintue flight and don't recall being in the landing area once much less making points.
If not for the strong support of a very active glider club I would NEVER have dreamed of flying in an ESL contest. And if I were placed next to experts I would have dropped out.
If it were available, I would have started as Novice. Only my strong ego and the support of the members of my club kept me from slinking away in total embarrassment by how badly I flew compared to other Sportsman pilots. If I had been in groups with Experts I don't know if I could have dealt with that much embarrassment.
So, I am not worried about the Sportsman who have been flying for years. They could deal with it, they will just be less likely to see wood.
I am not worried about the Experts getting three weak sportsman in the same group. That is a gift for them.
I am worried about that new guy, who is just trying out the ESL. If he is a strong pilot, no problem. But if he is a new pilot, I think we will scare him away and that concerns me.
That's my story and I am sticking to it. I don't want to see the groups seeded across Expert and Sportsman. |
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
Long Island Silent Flyers
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 07:29:13 AM
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If you want to do some kind of seeding and mixing of Experts and Sportsman.
Take the top sportsman and expert from Saturday (who are present Sunday) and the top sportsman and expert on Sunday and have a fly off Sunday afternoon for top pilot of the weekend. |
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
Long Island Silent Flyers
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jaizon
4 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 6:32:59 PM
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Ed,
Please don't take this the wrong way, but your constant mischaracterization of what has been proposed is making me think you are not considering what is being said and that you are reacting more from emotion rather than careful deliberation.
I, and others, are not and have never proposed just mixing in Sportsmen with Experts. That is just a gross mischaracterization. In fact it is my guess that most Sportsmen will not see a group with Experts in it. What has been proposed is a method for combining the groups in a way that will reflect the way a pilot is flying that day. That's all. Saturday you probably would not have been in a group with any Experts, and Sunday you may have seen a couple. But to speculate that you wouldn't have done any better is just that - a speculation. You have no way of knowing how those interactions would have turned out. You can only guess. You might have done very well because any expert you might have encountered would not be having a good flying day.
And what about those new Sportsmen? Well if they're very good new Sportsmen they may get the same taste you would have gotten, or maybe not. And the Sportsmen who are less competent - they will never get up that ladder until they are flying at that level. It's just not a problem, at least not the one you are making it out to be. The initial seeding question has been dealt with in the "Modest Proposal" exchange of e-mails. So you can continue to protect these newbies and make your same pitch as to why they should come fly with us as well as telling them that unless they're very very good they will not fly with Experts.
I welcome your comments and even your objections but hope they are based on what I and others actually say not your interpretation. I know you feel strongly about this, we all do, but a productive discussion is based on an honest exchange of ideas, not statements like "That's my story and I'm sticking to it."
For those not part of the "Modest proposal" e-mails, I apologize. I just didn't have your addresses. I am, however, cross posting Ed's comments and mine to that exchange. E-mail me your address if you'd like to be included. My e-mail is jaizon@hotmai.com
Preston
P.S. I really like your idea of a fly-off. |
Edited by - jaizon on 08/19/2010 6:58:37 PM |
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 10:09:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jaizon
Ed,
Please don't take this the wrong way, but your constant mischaracterization of what has been proposed is making me think you are not considering what is being said and that you are reacting more from emotion rather than careful deliberation.
Snip
Preston
P.S. I really like your idea of a fly-off.
There have been a number of differing proposals so my response may not be specifically to your comments. They represent my thoughts and opinions about mixing the classes.
But since you raised it, in what way have I "misscharacterized" what has been discussed, or what you have said here, in this thread?
The suggestion has been to fly seeded MOM where experts and sportsman are seeded together. I don't like that. It is that simple.
I also don't recommend cross posting as what I am responding to here is different from what I might have responded to in another discussion, so cross posting takes my comments out of context.
Ed |
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
Long Island Silent Flyers
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Edited by - aeajr on 08/20/2010 06:23:21 AM |
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jaizon
4 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2010 : 09:04:41 AM
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Ed,
Not everyone in the ESL reads this thread. The "cross posting" was made only to ESL members, some of whom may be
following this thread, some who may not, but were only following the e-mails titled "a modest proposal", which deals
entirely with the purpose of this thread. I do not consider it a breach of anything, though it may be redundant in
parts for those members. It is, in fact, a subset of this thread -- that's all. It's content is directly related to
this thread. That's a fact. Not my opinion. Nothing has been taken out of context.
You said "But since you raised it, in what way have I "misscharacterized" what has been discussed, or what you have said here, in this thread?"
I'm not sure what more I could write to make my position clear. Just read the previous post, and those before it. Your interpretation of what I'm saying doesn't make it the truth. And you can interpret any way you wish, clearly. That's your
right. But when I explain something, quite clearly, and point out why your interpretation is factually incorrect and a mischaracterization, and you just continue to repeat the same thing, what's the point of going over it again and again. Your characterization projects an incorrect impression of what has been proposed. I've tried to clear up that misconception, without any success. So let me approach this one more time.
You state that "The suggestion has been to fly seeded MOM where experts and sportsman are seeded together." This leads to the
impression that all experts and all sportsmen are seeded together. Or do you have a different interpretation for that statement?
Since there can be no other way of reading that comment - how does that square with the specifics of what I have proposed (which, by the way, are not your interpretation)? I would appreciate an answer to this, which you have not given so far. And I'll let you have the last word on this.
Preston
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2010 : 6:19:30 PM
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Preston,
It seems then that I don't understand your proposal. Here is how it reads to me.
The first flight group will be formed based on some criteria which is still up for discussion.
After the first round, as I understand it, all experts and all sportsman would be mixed together and then assigned flight groups based on some criteria, which I presume is based on points position from the previous round or points accumulated during the day, regardless of whether they are an expert or a sportsman.
As an illustration, if four pilots were to score 1000 points in the previous round, then they are likely to be grouped together in the next round, regardless of whether they are experts or sportsman.
This proceeds down the points list till all pilots are assigned flight groups. The concept is that you will be flying with pilots who had similar scores in the previous round or similar points accumulated over the day. Flight groups are not random and they are not segregated by expert and sportsman.
If that is not the proposal then I have no understanding of the proposal.
Have I misscharacterized this in some fashion?
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Best regards,
Ed Anderson
Long Island Silent Flyers
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Edited by - aeajr on 08/20/2010 6:34:27 PM |
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ESL - Where to take the league
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