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Fly2High
70 Posts |
 Posted - 11/02/2007 : 12:40:43 PM
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Guys,
I know this has been beaten to death but I was wondering about how hard it is to be promoted to Expert and I also saw that so many pilots do not attend enough contests to move up in a 2 year period. What I am proposing is an alternate method
Average score - average your last 'so many' normalized to Experts scores and if it is above some value, you get promoted. This way, if a Sportsman flies rather well but doesn't attend many contests, they would be promoted regardless.
You could even say the last say five contests, even if it would take five years + of scores to get that many scores, in the database. this would prevent those who would normally be promoted from ducking contests evey other year just to prevent upward migration. During the less than the required number of scores, the pilot can choose what class they want to be in.
You could also do the reverse - if your averaqge of the last so many scores is not high enough you get demoted. Demotion would occur only if you repeated being below the cutoff for so many seasons, say 2-5, consecutively.
Everyone has a bad year now and again and this will only demote when it proves to be nec. Of course ESL board can override all of this.
I am seeing much movement in hand launch and little to none in TD. I feel that this is mostly due to TD contests have more contestants or have more Expert contestants and so few Sportsman place high enough to get points. On the other hand, hand launch shows more sportsman with points and in some cases justified (I am certainly a lousy pilot and have no clue how I have gotten any points). I guess that the contests I have attended, there were fewer Expert pilots and so Sportsman have gotten points. If you compare average scores, I think that it takes a much higher average in TD to get points than it does in hand launch yet the Expert pilots avarages are about the same.
As it stands, in TD 40 points have been given to sportsman while 70 points have been given to sportsman in hand launch yet the average scores of the sportsman appear to be lower than the average scores for sportsman in TD.
I am not looking to advance or demote anyone. I am only looking for a way to improve on the promotion method we currently have so that it more accurately indicates a pilot's skills and therefore their position in the ESL.
on a personal note I can't wait to be promoted but I would like it to be due to my abilities having improved to the point where I am qualified to compete with those soaring dieties in Expert, not because I attended enough contests that happended to have a low Expert count and yet enough contestants to push me up to get points. I am looking forward to the day when I have earned it but I feel it is still some time off. I see others who have the ability but not the points to do so. Look at the average scores of TD Sportsman and tell me that they aren't great pilots! We have great pilots all around and they should be acknowledged for their skills.
Just an idea I have had....
Sincerely,
Frank N. |
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 12:52:42 PM
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Frank,
As I understand it, you can go to expert any time you like. The promotion process, as we have it today, is a forced process by which a Sportsman is pushed to Expert.
As I understand it, I could declare expert next season if I wish. However once I declare I stay in that class for that year. Don't know if there is any restriction that would keep me from going back to Sportsman.
In my case they would THROW me back to sportsman, so your demotion question my be relevent there. :(
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
ESL Content Editor
aeajr on the forums |
Edited by - aeajr on 11/02/2007 12:53:53 PM |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 1:42:17 PM
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| I thought you where talking about HL... sorry |
Edited by - F3jeb on 11/02/2007 2:50:28 PM |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 1:49:54 PM
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| For some reason I thought you were talking about HL and not TD |
Edited by - F3jeb on 11/02/2007 2:49:48 PM |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 2:23:12 PM
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Just over a year ago we modified the advancement rules and I do believe they work quite well in the current form.
The way they work now is that its your lifetime advancement points that get counted. When you hit 20 you get advanced.
Looking at the final sportsman standings from the season we just completed, the advancement points are as follows: (the first number is the advancement points accumulated in 2006, the last one the lifetime advancement points)
Chuck Robinett 19 40
Miner Crary 0 24
George Hill 0 18
Bill Vida 0 17
Dimitri Katramatos 11 14
Alan Schwerin 0 9
Bob Waters 0 8
Ron Cichowski 0 8
David Stack 5 5
Robert Rondeau 0 4
Robert Buxton 1 4
Rich Watson 1 3
Kevin Sharbonda 1 1
Steve Mestri 1 1
Chuck Kayser 0 1
ACHILLES KOGIANTIS 0 1
Gerald Terfloth 1 1
Ed Arnaudin 0 0
Ed Anderson 0 0
Stoney Jasper 0 0
Mark Higgins 0 0
John Hayes 0 0
Roger Byrd 0 0
Bob Dietz 0 0
Gary Bolash 0 0
Duane Beck 0 0
John Bitzer 0 0
Jim Ealy 0 0
Clay Ott 0 0
Regis White 0 0
Bob Turner 0 0
Ewing Taylor 0 0
Lenny Strickland 0 0
Bob Stewart 0 0
Daniel Siegel 0 0
Greg Sado 0 0
Michael Moore 0 0
Richard Plummer 0 0
Michael Lavelle 0 0
Jim Otis 0 0
Frank Nisita 0 0
Keith Ebeltoft 0 0
Scott Harris 0 0
Peter Nicholson 0 0
Phil Abatelli 0 0
Alan Marshall 0 0
John Leigh 0 0
Reid Roberts 0 0
When you look at this list, it is absolutely fair that Chuck Robinett and Miner Crary get advanced. Dimitri is sure to advance after next season if he continues as he did this one, and George Hill is also fairly likely to advance.
The only surprises I see are Robert Buxton, who flies better than his advancement points show, and Bill Vida, who has flown for a long time and may be advanced if we does well in a contest.
In the old days, when I was a sportsman, advancement points were calculated purely from sportsman standings. First place sportsman got you five points, second place four, and so on. We decided to abandon that system because if you were unlucky enough to fly in a few contests with a small number of sportsmen, you suddenly found yourself with a lot of advancement points.
I think the system we have now works quite well. If someone has an idea I am happy to run it against the historical data we have and see whether it delivers a better result.
Anker |
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Fly2High
70 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2007 : 8:02:13 PM
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Anker,
Am I wrong is saying that the rules say that you have to get 20 points in the last 2 years, not lifetime or is that only for hand launch? I thought that was proposed and passed last year for all flying.
The issue I have is that if a very qualified individual chooses not to go to too many ontests they might take a rather long time to advance eventhough his average score places that pilot into the Expert class. I was suggesting an average score so that those who only go to one or two could also advance if their skills are worthy. With the sum total method as long as the contests have few experts flying, sportsman will get points even if they do not fly as well on a percentage basis. What I see happening is id experts starts choosing to fly fewer contests, then more sportsman will get points and move up. Unfortunately their abilities may not be up to par to compete at that level.
If you were to look at a flat percent or an average score then you get a feeling how well they are flying. The percet works because I like to know what percent of my scores is compared to the top experts and how well would I do to compete with them.
I guess I relate this to qualifying school. You need to be able to score high enough to get to the pros.
Anker, if you were to look at pilot's average normalize to expert scores, would any of the Sportsman move up if the cut line was say 80
%?
Frank |
Edited by - Fly2High on 11/04/2007 8:03:43 PM |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 11:43:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fly2High
The issue I have is that if a very qualified individual chooses not to go to too many ontests they might take a rather long time to advance eventhough his average score places that pilot into the Expert class.
The ESL places a grate deal of value on attendance, we promote soaring through competition and participation
In order to place in the ESL you have to show, to the minimum number of contest required in the ESL, if we didn't do that, people would only show up at the two LI contest and blow the rest off...
Frank, I really don't get what you are trying to acomplish, I understand your point, but the ESL is not to the benefit of one or two pilots who would like to move up to expert but don't attend enough contests
I think the system we have in TD now works well, and from time to time if there is a pilot who is really an expert they'll get moved up, that has it's own process
Jose |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 12:05:33 PM
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Frank,
Last year, 2006, we changed it to lifetime for TD. I am going to let the HLG people decide for themselves hoe to advance.
The average is a good idea, but it needs some refinement. It would require a minimum number of contests to eliminate huge statistical fluctuations. If you are passionate about it, I'll help you with some statistics and you can make a proposal at the end of season meeting next year.
It is important to decide what to aim for, "too good to be a sportsman" or "good enough to be an expert". The current scheme is of the "good enough to be an expert" class.
The other thing to worry about is "fairness". We found that the 2-year limit wasn't "fair" because it was too easy to "manage". The current one is better.
Ideally, and this has mostly been the case, individuals who feel ready to fly in expert will promote themselves, maybe after a last blast of going for Sportsman of the Year.
Anker |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 12:23:44 PM
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Anker, anything which doesn't promote the attendance to multiple contest, would be counter productive. The HL should be like TD where in order to move up, you would have to place in the top overall
Jose |
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 12:36:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by anker@ankersoft.com
Ideally, and this has mostly been the case, individuals who feel ready to fly in expert will promote themselves, maybe after a last blast of going for Sportsman of the Year.
Anker
Anker,
Thanks for clarifying this point. Anyone can promote themselves at the end/beginning of the season. No points are required for this.
This whole discussion is about when will the league will force promote you to Expert.
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
ESL Content Editor
aeajr on the forums |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 12:48:27 PM
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Jose,
In my opinion, the advancement system affects multiple contest attandance in two ways: Positively when a flyer it trying to get an end of year award in sportsman before being promoted, and negatively when a sportsman tries to defer promotion. Other than that I can't think of any impacts.
Encouraging and promoting attendance at multiple contests is a subject in itself. The end of season awards play a strong role, as does encouragement from individual clubs. CRRC has been well represented over the years because of a core group that actively tries to recruit more members. LISF has done really well the last couple of years, and I think there is room for more promotion and encouragement from all of the clubs. The cost of attending remote contests is becoming more of a problem. As we get older we are much less inclined to stay at the "Cat Lady" and similar establishments. Meals and gas prices are also taking more of a bite, and many of us are retired or close to restirement with reductions in income.
Thanks/Anker |
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Fly2High
70 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 1:17:13 PM
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I never realized that promotion was different for hand launch and TD. The way I read it, I thought the 24 points lifetime was for both
Frank |
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Fly2High
70 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 1:27:16 PM
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Jose,
My thought was to prevent a pilot who wanted to remain a sportman for a longer period of time eventhough they are qualified to be an expert. If I was a good pilot but decided I would rather win in Sportsman than move up and barely place in Expert, I might decide to go to less contests so I would win less advancement points. With the average score, you couldn't do this. If you went to one or all ESL contests, your average (based on the rules) might cause you to move up. With expenses getting higher, it has become harder to attend more contests. I think it would be great for a pilot to get a email, letter or what not from the ESL saying congrats you have become eligible to move up to Expert. I would concider it an honor, especially if my skills were shown sufficiently that even in a few contests I was able to impress my abilities. (In my case this would never happen but a guys got to dream :) ). I am not looking to push someone up but rather recognize the talents of those who have improved and might not know or might be intimidated to going up. Maybe a little encouragement in this fashion might also spur them to attend more.
Just a thought....
Frank |
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Fly2High
70 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 1:56:01 PM
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Jose,
With an average score system, it would not matter if few Experts attended. I look at Jeff's post about only 3 Experts went to So. Jersey some time ago. If there were 17 Sportsman and the Experts took the top three spots the top expert would come away with 7 advancement points. I feel a scoring system should not hinge on whether Experts attend or not.
Advancement should be based on abilities. the hard part is without a few Experts in attendance, how do you judge how well a sportsman has done?
At LISF's HL contest we have been precariously low on experts but yet have been getting more and more sprotsman (thanks to all for your support regardless of class). I do not want to lose Sportsman if no experts attend simply because their scores will not apply to ESL advancement. Away costs are laot regardless which class you are in. |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 2:06:14 PM
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Frank,
Why don't you work up a detailed proposal.
I assume you mean "average normalized sportsman score". How many contests would be needed in the average? Any ageing. For example, some of the ageing sportsmen used to fly better than they do now.
Once you have the details worked out I will run it against the historical data and see how it compared with the current system.
Just one final point. No matter what system we have, someone will figure out how to work it to his advantage, like "woops, my average is getting to xxx, I better throw a contest or two to keep it down".
Anker |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 5:08:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fly2High
I never realized that promotion was different for hand launch and TD. The way I read it, I thought the 24 points lifetime was for both
Frank
They are different, HL the top 3 Sportsman move to expert and for TD you must have finished in the top ten overall in order to accumulate the required 20 points
But they are two separate groups |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 5:14:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fly2High
Jose,
With an average score system, it would not matter if few Experts attended. I look at Jeff's post about only 3 Experts went to So. Jersey some time ago. If there were 17 Sportsman and the Experts took the top three spots the top expert would come away with 7 advancement points. I feel a scoring system should not hinge on whether Experts attend or not.
Advancement should be based on abilities. the hard part is without a few Experts in attendance, how do you judge how well a sportsman has done?
At LISF's HL contest we have been precariously low on experts but yet have been getting more and more sportsman (thanks to all for your support regardless of class). I do not want to lose Sportsman if no experts attend simply because their scores will not apply to ESL advancement. Away costs are laot regardless which class you are in.
I have no idea what you are talking about, the HL division advancement is totatlly separate from TD, and as it stands now experts don't play a part on advancement, the top three sportsman move up, regardless of overall place (I personally don't agree with this)
I think it is important you are clear what you are talking about, TD or HL? because they are different
Jose |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 5:34:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by anker@ankersoft.com
Jose,
In my opinion, the advancement system affects multiple contest attendance in two ways: Positively when a pilot it trying to get an end of year award in sportsman before being promoted, and negatively when a sportsman tries to defer promotion. Other than that I can't think of any impacts.
Encouraging and promoting attendance at multiple contests is a subject in itself. The end of season awards play a strong role, as does encouragement from individual clubs. CRRC has been well represented over the years because of a core group that actively tries to recruit more members. LISF has done really well the last couple of years, and I think there is room for more promotion and encouragement from all of the clubs. The cost of attending remote contests is becoming more of a problem. As we get older we are much less inclined to stay at the "Cat Lady" and similar establishments. Meals and gas prices are also taking more of a bite, and many of us are retired or close to retirement with reductions in income.
Thanks/Anker
Anker, Frank
One of the goals of the ESL is to promote soaring through competition, and one way of having pilots attend multiple contest is for the EOS scores, which means if people want to move up or score well at EOS they should attend as many contest as possible, so the ESL essentially "makes" people attend as many contest as possible by the very structure we have
If people didn't have to leave their own contest and travel then we would not have an ESL, if someone ones to be a top pilot in the ESL then they have to show up and be good other wise you don't get the recognition
As of right now I have not seen a good argument for a different promotion/scoring system
I personally don't care about any one individual personal score, but I care about the livelihood of the ESL
Then what is the point of having the ESL, I can build a mean website where people just enter their scores from their "home" contest and make the entire ESL a "postal" league
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Fly2High
70 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 12:29:02 AM
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Jose,
I completely agree that whatever system should promote contest attendance. I do not know for sure and maybe Anker can tell me, has attendance dropped over the years? I know that LISF TD was lower during the 10 years that I was a LISF member (a few years ago) but now has rebounded. I do not know if a scoring system will promote or could promote contest attendance. I do feel that ESL is about more than local contests but is it just a forum for competition? I always felt that the ESL was about contests but also about comraderie, promotion of sailplanes, keeping flying as a legacy for our children, and a forum to share what we all enjoy - everything sailplanes. I feel that I am supporting the clubs keep sailplane flying in their communities by atttending contests. Also I do it to satify my competitve nature - can't have all perfect aspirations. As a pilot I am not that great but if I get another guy to say hey, that looks like fun and if he can do it so can I then my feable attempts at flying were worth it.
I'll get off my soapbox now....
Jose,
If the current HL system is to always move up the top few pilots then that is rediculous. When will it stop? When we run out of Sportsman to move up? Logically if the number of new Sportsman joining each year is less than the number that move up, eventually we will all be Experts, skills or not. I do not think either system is perfect and was only proposing an alternative, maybe come up with a better system.
Maybe Advancement points should be done separately for Sportsman and Expert. This way, even if a contest was lacking or the numbers in attendace are low, you still can get points. For example if a contest has 5 Experts and 15 Sportsman, and the Experts all did better than the Sportsman we currently give the top guys 10, second 9,etc. regardless of class (normalized together)
Maybe we whould only give out a max number of points based on half the number of attendees in a class rounded down. So since there were only 5 experts, the top would get 2 points, and the second place would get one. In Sportsman, since there were 15 pilots, the top Sportsman would get 7 points,second Sportsman 6 etc.
Maybe we limit it to a max of 5 points per class also. This way, if you go to a contest that is well represented for your class you could get more points. After all, if expert is separate from Sportsman and we want to promote Sportsman pilots, why does it matter how the Experts do? It is how you do compared to other Sportsmen that should count. Again just another suggestion.....
Of course this may not promote attendance. It might be better to have 5 points regardless of the number of pilots in each class. this way, if a contest has low attendance it would make other pilots come to block lesser pilots from getting points.
I feel that by separating Sportsman from Expert point awards, you will get the top sportsman to move up and get a point system to Experts for standings comparison.
Has anyone ever been demoted? If ESL is trully about competition then there should be demotions also. I personally feel that is a personal thing and may drive pilots away but then there are those who are highly competitive that may want to fight to get back into Expert. Not all will though. I wouldn't want to be the guy to tell someone that next year they are no longer an Expert.
I do not know the answers but this is great. I never knew so much about how scoring is done and other ways to view it. Thanks guys!!
This is the most activity I have seen on these forums in a while. Thanks guys for your points. I love the discussion and am learning alot.
Frank |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 07:27:31 AM
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Frank,
The process for "demotion" in the ESL is by petition to the board of directors. It does happen regularly and is usually granted. The primary reason is failing abilities due to age, but as long as the board agrees that the petitioner flies at the sportsman level any reason is valid.
Anker |
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Fly2High
70 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 07:55:11 AM
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| Learn something new every day...... |
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Alternative promotion to Expert method
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