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paul
13 Posts |
 Posted - 10/13/2005 : 10:28:51 AM
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EASTERN SOARING LEAGUE MINUTES
OCTOBER 8, 2005
Submitted by Paul Bell, Secretary / Treasurer
The end of season meeting was held at the Best Western Dutch Colony, Reading, PA on October 8, 2005. There were about 20 members in attendance
1. The outgoing Secretary’s notes were read for the 2004 ESL EOS meeting.
2. The Treasurer’s report was submitted and accepted.
3. A proposed 2006 Schedule was submitted for review and after some minor modifications, the following is the potential 2006 schedule:
DATE EVENT
May 6,7 BASS HLG (Tentative)
May 20,21 F3J, Tom Kiesling CD (Tentative)
June 3,4 IGLGF (Not ESL)
June 10,11 SKSS 1
June 17,18 Polecat Challenge HLG
June 24,25 LISF 1 (John Hauff CD)
July 8,9 DBSF
July 17, 18 NATS (Estimated)
July 24, 25
Aug 12,13 CRRC
Aug 19.20 CASA HLG
Aug 26,27 SJSF 1 (Questionable)
Sep 9.10 CASA Open
Sep 16,17 SJSF HLG
Sep 23,24 LISF 2 (Frank Strommer CD)
Oct 7,8 ESL EOS
4. A long discussion centered around an initiative to attract new members and to increase ESL contest attendance.
a. A proposal was made by Tom Kiesling and Paul Bell to create a new Public Relations position (It was not discussed as to whether this position would become a member of the Board of Directors).
b. As an aid to the person selected, the following recommendations were included in the proposal:
i. Advertise contests in online discussion groups (RCSE, RC Groups)
ii. Advertise ESL, contest schedule and local club information in Model Aviation Magazine.
iii. Notify local newspapers of upcoming contests.
iv. Develop and distribute an ESL information handout to clubs
v. Develop and distribute an "ESL membership card" that includes the season schedule to clubs.
vi. Recommend that ESL member clubs define a "spectator area" at their club contests, as well as at ESL contests, to be staffed by a club member to answer questions, distribute information, help to identify visitors and potential members and as a safety measure.
c. The ESL treasury will fund Public Relations activities when the new Public Relations representative provides a plan identifying the amount of funding required for each effort.
d. The Board of Directors will approve the funding.
e. Jeff Steifel volunteered to be the Public Relations Representative for the first year.
5. Paul Bell proposed that raffles be conducted at each ESL contest as a means of attracting pilots to return to the contests and to attract new pilots.
a. An award of either cash or RC equipment was discussed (RC equipment was considered to be much more attractive than cash).
b. It was decided to leave the choice to the discretion of the ESL contest-sponsoring club.
c. It was agreed that this effort would be funded up to $100 per thermal duration contest day from the ESL treasury and would be limited to the 2006 contest season only.
6. Tom Broeski proposed the creation of a Master class. After discussion the proposal was voted down (1 For, 9 Against, 4 Don't Care)
7. Dale Hart proposed the creation of a Novice class, which was accepted after extensive discussion. The class will be designed to attract new, or beginning flyers and would include the following ground rules:
a. Awards will be limited to inexpensive framed certificates (no expensive awards)
b. Scores will not be mixed with Expert/Sportsman, but will be maintained by the ESL Scorekeeper.
c. No fee will be paid to ESL for Novice participants.
d. A Novice will advance to the Sportflyer Class after 12 contest days, or upon the request of the Novice flyer.
e. Tasks will be developed by the sponsoring club Contest Director and will be aimed at shorter flight duration times (for example five minutes) and easier landings (for example, in/out)
f. Launch assistance will be allowed, including control of the transmitter during launch by other than the Novice pilot.
g. There will be no limitations on aircraft type than can be flown.
h. The proposal for the Novice class was accepted.
8. It was proposed that a man-on-man (MoM) contest format be recommended to all ESL Contest Directors as a means of making the ESL contests more fair than some of the current formats
a. MoM was considered fairest test of flying skills
b. Group call up was considered to be the least attractive format
c. The MoM format was strongly recommended for all ESL contests (and was tried at the 2005 EOS using retrievers – which worked out very well.)
d. Contest Directors experienced in running MoM contests volunteered to offer tips and recommendations.
9. Tom Kiesling recommended that we adopt a general policy of mentoring less experienced pilots. Some suggestions on how to formulate a mentoring program could include:
a. Pair up more experienced pilots with less experienced for timing
b. Offer a clinic (of about one hour) at the completion of the Saturday competition
c. Advertise the clinic in contest flyer
d. Clinic subjects might include:
i. Sailplane setup
ii. Launching techniques
iii. Tips on thermal flying
iv. Have an Expert test fly and evaluate a sailplane
e. The clinic could be run by visiting club members to off-load local club members who are conducting the contest.
f. Tom’s proposal was accepted.
10. There was some discussion regarding ways to reclassify the current Expert and Sportflyer composition.
a. At issue is the very real problem that some newly minted Expert flyers have very little likelihood of placing high in the Expert ranks.
b. Consideration was given to replacing the current advancement system by ranking all pilots based on average score at the end of the season and then selecting some percentage of the total fliers to be Experts and the remainder (not including Novices) to be Sportflyers.
c. Details of this approach remain to be worked out pending an evaluation by the ESL Scorekeeper in concert with Dale Hart.
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 5:35:51 PM
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A couple of comments on the great minutes!
I was saddened to see no LASS contest! I have always enjoyed LASS as the first contest I go to every year. Sob.
Where does Tom plan to run the F3J contest?
As the score keeper, I'll be happy to support a novice class. I assume that Dale and I figure out the details.
I am an enthusiastic supporter of the mentorin program. I would like Jose to dedicate a page to listing volunteer mentors and the contests they plan to attend. Mentees (that must be the spelling!) could then contact the mentor to reserve a mentor.
I have suggested the "cutoff" approach to determining class and am ready to support it. I have all the performance data we possibly may need to determine where the cutoff is, and let the sportsmen and experts know each season. Once gain, I'll work with Dale on the implementation.
I really would like to see Fritz' "kill sticker" idea implemented!
Anker
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 7:18:57 PM
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Thanks to Jose for sending out a notice about the minutes.
I find the tone of the discussions exciting, especially as to how we can help new flyers ease into competition. I hope to participate in more ESL events next year, beyond the LISF events, and would be happy to help with the novice flyers in any way the group feels I can contribute. I can certainly help launch light weight woodies and foamies ( as long as we don't have a strong cross wind!)
I love the idea of the mentor program.
I think a cutoff for expert vs. sportsman based on prior year's achievement is a great idea. That means you have to earn your way in, that anyone can earn their way in, and that you have to be motivated to keep your expert standing, or get sent "back to the farm team", with a smile and a wink. ;) For most of you guys, this is a given but what a boost it would be to be able to say that one is competing at the expert level in the ESL. Way cool!
Jeff, I am VERY active on the forums. If I can help publicize events, please feel free to call on me. I have thousands of posts, am a moderator on several, and spend most of my time helping the new guys get in the air with electrics and sailplanes. I have been posting notices of the LISF ESL events on 8-10 forums and chatting them up. We have had flyers come in from other clubs based on some of these posts. So, doing it for the whole schedule would be VERY easy for me. How can I help?
Thanks for forming this league. Thanks to Rich Watson, Pete Nicholson, John and Lenny Hauff, Ray Juschkus and others for encouraging me to enter the competition in my second flying season. It has been a great help and motivator for me to try and do more than just float around the sky and land somewhere on the field.
I look forward to next season!
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
aeajr on the forums
Long Island Silent Flyers |
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kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 7:40:59 PM
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Hi Guys,
Anker, I'm not sure where the F3J contest would be yet. Skip mentioned the Polo field CASA has access to may be an option.
I'm open to suggestions. I would like this to be one of the practice contests for the US F3J team.
As far as the sportflyer "cutoff" goes, this is only a metric for people to decide if they want to stay in expert or move to
sportflyer. There will not be mandatory changing of class as some of the above discussion implies. The idea is to give people
a convienient and comfortable way to move to sportflyer if they so desire.
The problem with a mandatory cut off is that some people like the challenge of flying in the expert class and have the right
to do so. Also, some experts may have a bad year and should not be dropped to sportflyer because of this. For example, they
may only go to 5 contests and during those contests they may have an unusually bad series of equipment failures.
Tom |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 8:35:45 PM
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Thanks Tom,
I appreciate the clarification. If I understanbd it correctly, if you don't make the "cut", you can fly sportsman the next season "without shame". If you DO make the cut, you MUST fly expert. I can manage that.
I think this scheme and the novice class MUST go together, otherwise we will just have moved the problem.
When I succeed in reaching Dale (I have asked him for the scores, but not heard back from him), I'll work with him to put together a complete proposal.
Anker |
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kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 8:56:29 PM
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Yes, that is the idea. The "without shame" part is what I was missing - Thanks!
And yes, the novice class is the key (I think) to this working.
Tom |
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D_Ryan
5 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 8:09:50 PM
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In the days leading up to the EOS contest and the EOS meeting, there was discussion on the forum that "floated" the idea of different tasks for different competitor classes, e.g. 10 minute tasks for Experts, and 7 minutes for Sportsmen.
I see no mention of that concept in the EOS minutes, has that idea been discarded with the introduction of the Novice class and the proposal to establish a percentage cutoff to separate the Sportsmen and the Experts?
Personally, I would prefer that Sportsmen and Expert fly the same task times. This was my "coming out" year, when I left the comfort of my home club (TMSS in Virginia) and attended my first ESL contest (CASA). At home I fly as an expert, advanced by virtue of having won the sportsman class for two years running. When I registered for CASA, I registered as a sportsman, largely because I felt unworthy of categorizing myself in the same class with the current ESL experts. In reviewing my scores from CASA, I believe I made the correct choice, as I finished with normalized scores approximately 85% of the overall winner.
Regardless of what class I compete in, my goal will always be to come away from each contest with a new "PB" or Personal Best, but I'd still want to be able to compare my performance against everyone else, with the same task times.
Dave |
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kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 11:01:13 PM
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Hi Dave,
Yes, I think the concept of different task times should only be used for the novice class.
I think there are enough people that feel as you do that they want to compete with the same tasks
as the experts to gauge their performance.
Also, I'm not sure that the percentage cutoff will necessarily replace the advancement point system.
I was thinking that the cutoff concept would be used just to help people decide which class they should
be flying in with the addition of the novice class. I'll leave this up to Dale and Anker to figure out.
Tom |
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gldrgidr
22 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 03:58:02 AM
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| When the mentoring program was being discussed in these forums there was talk of experts mentoring Sportsmen. With the introduction of the Novice class, will the mentoring be for the Novice class only or will there be Experts mentoring Sportsmen and Sportsmen mentoring Novices? |
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kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 11:19:16 AM
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The mentoring program is not going to be that rigidly structured, in fact it is more of a suggestion/mind set than a formal
program.
The way I see it, there will in some cases be experts mentoring experts. What I don't want to see is the same old pairings
of people that have been timing each other for many years. The amount of information that is being exchanged in these pairings
is limited, and I think there is benefit in these people pairing up with others of different skill levels to exchange
knowledge.
Tom |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 5:37:54 PM
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What I would like to see; people agreeing on a timing “etiquette”, I think people tend to drift to “favorite” timers because they don’t want to deal with unsolicited comments, and “expert” advice or the uncertainties of someone not knowing the “standard” timing convention or some people just don’t like change. – It is awkward having to ask someone to stop telling you about their new car stereo or what ever when you are trying to concentrate. Giving advice while someone is flying is an art, not exclusive to “top” pilots but to a few.
Before we can see any permanent changes in timing behavior, we have to look at why people tend to gravitate to the same timers.
There should be a minimum to expect from a timer or timing “etiquette”,:
- Expect the timer to know the “standard” timing convention*
- Expect the timer to walk you to the landing area
- Expect the timer to watch others for safety
- Don’t expect the timer to provide you with any additional information unless you ask for it.
- Timer shouldn't’t give unsolicited advice unless asked to
*Standard TD timing convention at the ESL:
- Call every minute
- Every 15 seconds two minutes prior
- Every 5 seconds during the last minute
- Last 10 seconds: should be agreed prior to start of round
In my opinion some good timers that come to mind (I am sure there are others)
Josh (no last name needed)
Luis Bustamantes
Dave Walter
Tony Guide
Terry Luckenbach
They just give you the time, and a couple of heads-up if needed.
The timer shouldn’t be obligated to do any special count downs, or formats, especially if the pilot demands it once the round has started, if you want something special ask before the rounds start and find some one who does, but don’t hold up the contest because you can’t find a timer who doesn’t server “tea” the way you like it outside of what is to be expected.
just some ideas and observations
Jose
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Edited by - F3jeb on 10/17/2005 5:49:02 PM |
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kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 6:38:26 PM
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Jose's points bring up something that hasn't formally been discussed yet. The mentor doesn't necessarily have to be
the timer. The mentor being the timer just happens to be a convenient use of resources.
Establishing ground rules and expectations are crititcal as Jose points out. If I'm timing for someone I'm not that familiar with, I have learned over the years that it is better just to give the times and advice only when asked for. After the flight I may then offer some pointers/observations. If I time for that person again, I may talk a bit more during the flight referencing things that were discussed previously.
I have found this works best. Trying to talk someone through a flight is very difficult without turning them into a "meat servo" (credit Dave Walter for the term). Flying in a thermal is a very precise thing and giving suggestions often fails due to misunderdandings or slow response times. So the end result is often an unhappy pilot especially if they were expecting a lot. And of course no one likes being a meat servo. . .
Tom |
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Dave Walter
18 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 11:44:01 PM
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>>> "meat servo" (credit Dave Walter for the term).
Great term, but I heard it from Mark Drela, and I think he was passing it on from yet someone else.
Dave
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flyeslhost
158 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 12:29:11 PM
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quote:
Anker, I'm not sure where the F3J contest would be yet. Skip mentioned the Polo field CASA has access to may be an option.
I'm open to suggestions. I would like this to be one of the practice contests for the US F3J team.
CASA is a bit too far for the northern folks, since there is no LASS next year could we talk to Mr. Murr and perhaps we could use one of their fields, it would be an ESL contest so we cover the expenses, field fees, and anything else.
Jose |
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kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 1:35:24 PM
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It's possible, but the LASS fields may be too small. It depends on which field they are allowed to use.
Also, based on past experience, I do not think the LASS club would be interested.
Tom |
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2005 EOS Minutes (discussion)
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