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Bruce
4 Posts |
 Posted - 10/09/2005 : 05:06:06 AM
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At the year end meeting we discussed a formula for demotion of marginal expert flyers.
Personally I think the idea of that using a formula to determine who are the weaker expert flyers and then telling them they should really be flying in sportsman class would both be demeaning and embarrassing to the flyer. If you worked yourself to improve and won advancement points to move beyond sportsman then you deserve to fly in that class. Even to be told you now have a choice and can still fly in expert is and insult. I feel that if this happened to me, I would reconsider going to as many contests, because why is it worth the effort. This is counter productive to wanting a better turnout out at contests. I see even the poorer experts flying light years above the sportsman class. If there are to many experts, so be it, but don't make the ESL so elite while we are trying to expand the number of flyers.
Being a sportsman and winning trophys is ridiculous and meaningless
if on any given round you could beat any expert man on man in that round !
I rarely get angry about a hobby I love and have a passion for,
but the more I thought about this demotion proposal the more upset I got.
--my two cents worth
Bruce |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 11:47:23 AM
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Bruce,
I am sorry you feel that way, although I was not at the meting this year, but I am sure if such a program was implemented you wouldn't have to worry about it, again I wasn’t there, but such a program is not meant to only leave the top 10 competitors in the Expert class, that would mean everyone in the expert class would get a plaque and THAT would be silly!
I don't believe we should have life-time membership into the expert class, I believe we get complaisant, I think we already are. By implementing a program like this, it would put a little fire in our behinds, making us work harder.
Folks, can’t have your cake and eat it too, most active voices against the master’s program complaint they wouldn’t get a chance to compete and possibly beat the top three, people need to be flying at their most competitive to get a chance to be in the top three, so what’s the worry.
But when implementing such a program we have to be careful not put in place a system that would discriminate against top pilots who might not be able to compete as often in the ESL for XY and Z reasons, say you live in North Caroline, have a couple of kids compete in as many ESL contest as you can and you are a world ranked pilot, but for some reason the system booted you to sportsman, that would look silly and we would probably loose our wonder boy for ever.
If that system was implemented for this past year and next I would probably be in Sportsman, and that is fine with me, knowing I am responsible for my slide and I can always come back.
If implemented well, I think it could be a win-win making it fun by shaking up things a bit.
I wouldn’t want to have the label “Expert” if I am not flying like one.
Jose
P.S. Bruce, I think you race some valid concerns that still have to be addressed
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Edited by - F3jeb on 10/09/2005 11:50:05 AM |
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Bruce
4 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 12:59:28 PM
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Jose,
All I am saying is that you diminish the effort it took to become an expert, and that most experts, not even the top flyers, have learned something about soaring beyond what many sportsman know yet. Having experts that are demoted still gives an advantage to that that expert flyer in a much easier group. If getting a trophy is that important to a sports flyer then his chances are greatly diminished. With a move to more man on man contests, it makes it hard to become a complaisant. Man on man is like a mini contest within the large contest and it is hard to not be competetive when you are directly flying against the man next to you.
I still say it would be embarrassing and demeaning to be flying in a group you know on most days are not up to your expert level of knowledge and skill. You are expected to be an expert and should be treated as one. I don't think you should be penalized for not always being in the top part if this group, but ecouraged to work harder.
--Bruce |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 4:41:31 PM
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I feel indifferent to what such change could do to my ego, but I am more concern to what happens to the ESL in general. It is clear we need to make some changes to help attract new members and bring old ones back, so I am sure such a proposal was made with that intention. By all we know you might be voicing the sentiments of the majority, hard to tell with meting attendance so low, and only outspoken members posting on the forums.
Bruce, was it a suggestion? or was it a proposal that passed? how many people where at the meting?
Jose |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 8:47:05 PM
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Bruce and Jose,
I am really sorry I couldn't make this year's meeting. Your discussion warrants a few comments:
I find it hard to believe that there may have been a serious discussion about compulsory demotion to sportsman class and am anxious to learn what really went on.
Any expert that places in the bottom 25% of experts can request "demotion" to sportsman class according to the bye-laws.
Anker |
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kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 4:39:29 PM
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Anker, I don't think there was any discussion about compulsory demotion.
What was discussed was changing the metric for allowing people to move down if they wished.
If there was talk about compulsory demotion I missed it - there were some side discussions going on.
If there was talk of this, I strongly oppose it.
This is my take on it.
With the introduction of the novice class, my thinking is that the sportflyer class could be closer to its namesake.
In other words, the people that got moved to expert that are more casual about competition, or mostly go for the social
aspect may be more comfortable in the sportflyer class. By giving a numeric value to the break point for transitioning from
expert to sportflyer, it may make it easier for people to do this. Of course it would be their option. If they wished
to stay in the expert class since they enjoy that challenge, they are more than welcome to.
The details of coming up with a new metric is TBD. Perhaps it isn't necessary.
Tom |
Edited by - kiesling on 10/10/2005 4:39:47 PM |
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Bruce
4 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 6:01:54 PM
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Tom,
I am sorry if I got the discussion misconstrued. I thought that experts below a certain performance level would be considered sportsman again, and they would have to choose to fly in expert class. I thought that would be an insult to the expert flyer. I believe that John Hauff also read it this way, and for that reason we where totally opposed. Right now the lower 25% of expert flyers can still choose their class according to Anker. If we have this in the ESL bye-laws, why are we even having this discussion.
Sorry if I seem so confused,
--Bruce |
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kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 6:47:58 PM
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Buce,
I think the idea is to make people aware and formally give them an option. I think what Dale and I were thinking was
that it may be good to re-evaluate the current system. With the introduction of the novice class it provides a good
opportunity for those who feel overwhelmed in expert class to switch to sportflyer class without feeling like they are
beating up on novices.
Perhaps this wording may make it more clear. . .
With the restructuring of the ESL class system with the novice class, the ESL is inviting the current members to re-evaluate
which class they would like to fly in. With the novice class, the sportflyer class is now more geared toward the casual
competitor that prefers a less intense contest experience. To help those who are not sure if they should be in the sportflyer
class, if your average contest score is xx%, you are free to move to the sportflyer class. If you enjoy the challenge of the
expert class, you are more than welcome to stay there.
Hopefully this helps explain the idea.
Tom |
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tbroeski
24 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 5:58:36 PM
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Any way to have some goal for an expert other than being the best in the world would be a good thing as far as I am concerned. I know I can beat most sportsmen, but don't expect I will ever be at the top. I would just like to see a reasonable goal for those in the middle. I totally agree with annual performance as a way of showing achievement. The goal then would be to "stay" in expert and not just rest on one good year's performance. Instead of adding a class at the top, which I am still in favor of, I can set my goal as staying in expert. I don't think working hard to just "get there" is reason for people to have that designation for life. You should have to keep at it.
T
T&G
32 Mount View Dr
Afton, VA 22920
540 943-3356 |
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mikel
106 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 8:42:01 PM
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Tom,
What about the goal of making the top 10 in Expert? Isn't that a reasonable goal? It might take you a few more contests to get 6 good scores, but the contest experience will help in improving anyway. |
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Fly2High
70 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 5:01:19 PM
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I think the idea was not for demotion out of the expert class but rather to get people who claim to be sportsman to move up into expert. I have heard at many contests that there are those individuals who are always dominating sportsman and should be moved up. Now , to me, if a person is flying for the challenge or if they are flying to win trophies, I don't care but when others shy away from what seems to be the entry level for competition because they have no shot at beating a very well seasoned pilot then something should be done. They may give up before trying to fly at a competition. If it is in the spirit to get more new people to compete that we are having this discussion then there must be some criteria for advacement besides a voluntary change. As to the demotion issue, if you look at any profesional sport, what happens when you are no longer good enough to play in the majors, you are moved down to the minors until you get better. It doesn't have to be immediate but if a person constantly places at the bottom of expert for a couple of seasons then maybe they should move down. I do not want to express any disrespect to anyone but to see the other side might shed some additional light on this topic. A comment against demotion, sailplane flying is a recreational sport that has associated with it a lack of a cutthroat nature. It is the friendships throughout that causes us to have the number of contests, to volunteer time and energy to host them and see that they may continue long into the future. In this spirit I would see demotion to enter a bad feeling into this sport and may take something away from what it is really all about. Maybe demotion should only become a factor when the number of sportsman become too low to have a cometition at that level. A remark against promotion is that any lesser skilled pilots get to learn from the more experienced pilots in sportsman when they fly together. The remark was made that sportsman and expert should fly together so as to have sportsman take something away from the flight. Well, indirectly this is what's occurring when a promotion doesn't occur. Those same people who complain that a person should be promoted are the ones who will follow the person they want promoted whenever they are flying in the same heat. The same issues for promotion/demotion will come about for Novice and Expert classes. I guess what I am getting is the real reason all of us fly. Is it for the enjoyment, to test our skills against our peers or is it to setup a class system that we monkey with just so that someone can win a trophy. Personally, I have the respect and admiration for my peers, regardless of their class, and attend and do my work at contests for this reason. The category that I am in has no bearing on this. We all know who are the best flyers and dream to have their skill. If there are rules for promtion/demotion then instead of just a trophy for winning Sprotsman you can look forward to moving up because you proved worthy of the move not because you chose to. Likewise, if somone is not competing with their all and is placing near the bottom then they may be pushed to work harder so as to avoid being demoted. All of this promotes improving one's skills to be better pilots.
After all does it mean anything to be in Sportsman or Expert? Doesn't it mean more to have the respect of your peers rather than where you place and whether you win a trophy for whatever the reason???? What does bragging right get you???
Also, we are talking about cometition and all forms of cometition have rules that we all must follow. If the rules dictate that a flyer gets promoted/demoted for whatever the reason then we all must abide by them. The rules that are drafted are to make the competition better and safer for all. Also if a flyer is trully better than Sportsman but is demoted, wouldn't they then win a few contests, since they are in fact better, and get promoted again rather quickly. The rules can be such that it takes more to be demoted than it is to be promoted again favoring giving accolades for hard work and skill. If you need mixing boards, I'll bring some extra plywood with me to the contests next year.
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Fly2High
70 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 5:06:47 PM
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| Mayne the method for our ranking for determination of demotion/promotion should not be based on a sum total of 6 contests but rather on a flyer's average score. This way if a goog pilot , as suggested, can't fly as often then they will remain in Expert because when they do they tend to score in the upper levels. |
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Fly2High
70 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 5:22:34 PM
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| I heard a comment that there are those that would quit if they are not competing against the best in expert. If all soneone wants to know is how a flyer has done against an expert then why don't you just look at flight times. Granted, flying in different groupings means that you'll be flying in different air but if you look at the average data, these factors will average out. If this is the only reason for a person not to move down then why don't we go back to mixing the classes so that Experts and Sportsman fly together. Again other forums have said that this may be a benefit to many sportsman flyers and it would give those who are demoted and upper Sportsman flyers a chance to see how they are flying agains the top experts. |
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Demotion for weaker expert flyers
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