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flyeslhost
158 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2005 : 12:54:56 PM
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Sent on Sunday, September 25, 2005 at 07:44 PM
At this time 79 responses have been received out of 169
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flyeslhost
158 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 4:54:39 PM
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Lets start this off with one of the responses from the email list and keeping in mind the conditions of this initiative:
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-----Original Message-----
From: Louis J. Glaab [mailto:l.j.glaab@larc.nasa.gov]
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:48 PM
To: Kiesling, Thomas; Keith; ; ESL; Jeff Steifel
Subject: RE: Reasons for low turnout
Good afternoon,
Just adding some other things to consider along the SC2 compared to ESL contests, from what I gathered from talking with Daryl P., basically, what we know as the "ESL" in terms of numbers of clubs/flyers/etc, which covers
8 states and hundreds (if not thousands) of miles, is contained within about 100 miles (or less) in Southern CA. Don't know how to explain that, must be the weather or something. Would be kind of neat to hit 20 contests and not put more than 1,000 miles on the car ;-).
Regarding the masters class stuff, I can see it two ways. One way is that if two classes are done right, you don't need a third. We have again moved everyone who competes regularly into Expert class (despite the advancement point strategy implemented back in the mid-90s). Pilots get "advanced" to Expert class as a result of the shrinking overall #s of competitors and now Expert class has a very wide range of talent. The wide range of talent results in a situation where only the same few pilots are ever recognized and congratulated, which is probably a spiraling effect. Moving 3 or 5 flyers to Masters class could enable more flyers to be recognized when they have a good day, which could boost participation.
The idea of a trophy-less Masters class could work Ok. Perhaps just reading the scores of the top-3 Masters along with a hand-shake would be good enough (though I would probably need to bring some old plaques along for my sons since they really like that kind of stuff). I would also like to suggest that the number of pilots in Masters Class be limited, being able to get into Masters Class would be somewhat of an award on its own. Potential criteria to be a "ESL Master" could be winning what is now known as Expert class for a year in the last 5 or 10 years, or in the top-3 in Expert class for 3 of 5 years, or winning the NATS or being on a F3?
team. Would not want to have another discussion about Ultra-Grand-Master class in a few years ;-).
Thanks, Josh." |
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Dave Walter
18 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 8:05:27 PM
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I've cut and pasted below one of Tom Broeski's previous posts regarding Masters Class. I consider Tom the "champion" for this proposed change, as he is very passionate about it.
Dave
The muddy stuff is taken care of by the fact that the top 5 each year - no more - no less- compete the following year as masters. This is basically a trophy and honor thing. They will have fewer glue mixing trays, but will be on the ESL Soaring Cup for life (I will gladly donate a really nice one). The goal then, for the top experts, is to be in the top 5 overall. Everything else as far as scoring, how you move up from Sportsman, etc. stays the same. There's no compelxity and no confusion. Clubs won't be buying extra trophies and won't be spending $35 - $45 on someone's glue mixing tray. Everyone still flies with the same group of people, no matter what class they compete for trophies in. You can compare yourself to anyone you wish. If a club wants to have an RES category like CASA does, your score still counts the same toward ESL points the same as it does now. I did notice that the RES guys were left off of the CASA scores that are posted. They should be in either expert (Like Stew)or Sportsman or even Master if Mike wants to fly his bubble dancer - no matter what plane they fly or what trophies are given out.
Tom B |
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gldrgidr
22 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 8:13:47 PM
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I guess I don't get the reason for the masters class. Will there be three classes at each contest? If not, then the same people would get the plaques and there would be recognition at he end of the season that you are a master. That's just more awards for the current winners.
The masters class was suggested as a way to allow those in the expert class who can't compete at the same level as the top pilots, have a chance of coming home with a plaque.
How would this benefit experts who aren't able to compete at the top of their class?
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 8:47:07 PM
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It still doesn't make any sense to me at all.
What is being suggested is that we take the very people who are going to contests, taking the sport seriously and whom most of the rest of us see as role models out of the competition.
I would like to know who will go to more contests if there was a Master's class. To be in any kind of running for the end of season awards you have to go to a minumum of 6 contest days, and anyone but the masters will need at least a couple of throwaways, which means that you will need to go to 8 or more.
I think the effect of a Masters class will be exactly the opposite of what we are trying to accomplish. The ones who have become Masters in the previous season will be unmotivated from going to contests, it will not get the ones who aren't going to contests from coming to more.
Yes, the ones who go to the contests will get more plaques, which I don't think most of them care about.
I would like to hear who is honestly going to attend more contest days if they don't have the Toms, Phils and Joshes taking wood. Just send me an email, I won't give away your names. Just let me know specifially what contests you would have gone to this year if there had been a Masters class, honestly.
Anker |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 10:58:19 PM
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I personally feel indifferent about a Master’s class, but if it means it would bring more people back then why not, but if it means we loose the people supporting the contest every weekend… :-|
On one hand we have a silent majority who has expressed some interest in the idea, they rather remain silent. Most people don’t want altercations, it is not worth their time, and they have other things to do. The point is if the majority is not having fun they will leave.
If there is a provisional Master’s class, the ones who are really competitive would be gunning for Master’s class anyways, a couple of years ago I was bringing plaques almost every other weekend, as a sportsman, I was so focus on moving class the plaques where a nice bonus, but if I got a plaque and did not make top 10 over all, I wasn’t my own best friend that day…
A while back I sent my “There is a white elephant in the room and no one is talking about it” analogy…
quote:
“-----Original Message-----
From: Jose E. Bruzual [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:23 PM
To: [mailto:]
“There is a white elephant in the room and no one is talking about it", I do watch cycling and I have for about 20 years, in the 80’s at the big race (you know, that French race) it was anybody’s game, even in the early 90’s. But when Lance Armstrong stared winning I think after the 4th time in a row many of the racers started to get compliant by the seventh straight win of Lance career, (with the exception of a few guys…) they all started to get fat and could barely fit in their shorts… Well, that is their fault for not training as hard as Lance, and it happens with us too, although no one resents anybody for winning in the ESL.”
I still don’t think anyone grudges the top guys for winning in the ESL, I do feel this year my shorts where a bit tighter, and I wasn’t pedaling as hard as I use to, but that is my fault.
The ESL takes different meaning to all of us, or maybe there are different levels that bring meaning to it all, but who cares, as long as it brings meaning to everyone.
On the other hand, I am concern about the logistical aspect of creating a new class, if the top 6 are put into a new class, there would be a surge of sportsmen moving to Expert the following year, leaving the ESL with a few sportsman.
What if, we implement this change and the dynamics change, Creating an even larger void, the silent majority who wanted the class never shows up, and for the 20% who oppose this change no longer brings joy, and this 20% is very important too, since they are the ones supporting contest out there every other weekend.
So Tom, how do you propose we increase our attendance with out loosing our base?
Jose
“There is a white elephant in the room and 68% of the people reading this are not talking about it” |
Edited by - F3jeb on 09/27/2005 11:00:06 PM |
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Phil Barnes
100 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 11:11:54 PM
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I don't see a down side to the Masters class. Before explaining the reasons let me just say that there are really exactly three masters class ESL pilots right now and it is the same three guys who have been the Masters in my entire 10 years in the ESL. Tom, Mike and Josh may occasionally change positions relative to each other but they have always been and will likely continue to be a step above everyone else for quite some time (like until they retire).
I think the Masters class would work best with the top five pilots being considered masters. That would provide some incentive for top experts to try and maintain their position as Masters. I think it might just cause some people to come to extra contests just to be sure and stay in the top five. The guys near the top would always want to stay in the top grouping. You should be sure and post the grouping of pilots showing whether they are masters or experts very prominantly on the ESL web site and also mention that sort of thing in contest writeups. That way the top guys would worry about not being listed in the Masters class. People outside the ESL will see these ranklings and not know that Josh only attended 4 contests and so he is not in masters class for that reason. Josh doesn't want to go around making explanations so he is motivated to attend enough to stay in Masters class. Not picking on Josh, it's just that he makes a real good example right now. Heck if I should start feeling lazy and not want to drag myself out to so many contests I might just be motivated for the same reason. You can be sure that if there is a Masters class I'll want to be in it.
As for the awards. Tom Broeski has it right. At each contest the trophies would go to the expert and sportsman classes as they do now. The Masters class placings would be announced and maybe they would come forward for a handshake but they would be very greatfull not to have to carry a plaque away. I would think you would announce the top three masters who were competing at the contest. In many cases there would not even be three and maybe there wouldn't be any in attendance but I guess you would call the top three or however many were there. How the awards are handled at each contest would be up to the CD of that contest. maybe he wouldn't call a masters class pilot up for recognition unless he actually did beat all of the experts. These are minor points that would work themselves out in practice.
The main point is that having a masters class would open up the possibilities for other guys to win more awards. Instead of giving 70% or more of the plaques or mugs to the same three guys you would recognize more of the other competitors and make it easier for them to have a chnace at being recognized.
You'll have to get feedback from some of the main body of experts to see if that would apeal to them.
I don't see this changing anything for the sportsmen. That system could remain unchanged. Whatever the advancement criteria are now would stay the same. You could keep all of the experts and masters as all one class for the purpose of figuring advancement points for sportsmen, there is no reason why a masters class would change that.
The extra class could be a bit awkward or odd if contest attendance continues to be low. A really small contest with people split up into three classes start to look silly at award time. |
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jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 3:41:35 PM
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OK, I would like to be clear about this.
Anyone using the Expert class for an LSF Level V win will not be allowed to claim that win on their voucher.
On the web site it shows an example of the Gray Cup. Well the expert class is synonomous with gray cup. It prevents Masters from competing in the Expert class. Therefore a win in the expert class can never be used for a Level V win.
Jeff Steifel |
Edited by - jsteifel on 09/28/2005 3:42:09 PM |
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jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 3:46:25 PM
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Would the Master only be competing against Masters?
Only 5 people would compete against each other?
Jeff Steifel |
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kansky
10 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 5:00:06 PM
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The way I see it, the winner is the winner.
To me, winning a 1st place expert plaque for finishing 5th makes the trophy a glue mixing tray since it doesn't stand for anything. On the flip side, if I won a day when Kiesling, Glaab, and Lachowski were flying I would get a chain and wear that thing around my neck.
Trophies should mean something.
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 6:00:50 PM
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Sure Jeff, we can exclude anything that doesn’t benefit the group, I don't think anyone would oppose that.
So the idea was, take the top five or six from one year and make them into Master, so today it would look like this for next year.
Masters Class: Next year’s line up (If EOS where today)
1 Thomas Kiesling
2 Phil Barnes
3 Michael Lachowski
4 Jeff Steifel
5 David Walter
6 Tony Guide
Expert: what EOS would look like for expert, but this group with the exception of Josh tends to be more volatile in terms of contest to contest placement, they are considered “regular ESL attendee” these are NO one contest worrier, this guys are season pilots and come with “integrated-can-of- WhoopAss” to every contest. And most likely the top three trophy winners at any one contest would be found among this group and a few other regulars.
1 John Hauff
2 Jerry Zeigenfuse
3 Dale Hart
4 Peter Schlitzkus
5 Paul Bell
6 Anker Berg-Sonne
7 Fritz Bien
8 Terry Luckenbach
9 Stewart Swanson
10 Josh Glaab
If you are one of those who support the Master’s class because you only attend a couple of local contest per year and now think to get a plaque, you will have to get through some of this guys, but if that is what it takes to make you come out and play, so be it.
Since I don’t oppose the idea of a Master’s class, I’ll get behind it, maybe it'll bringing some interesting changes for some, and perhaps more will come out and compete.
How do we make it interesting for those who oppose it, and those who move to the Master’s class?
Can the “regular Expert ESL attendee” get behind this?
Jose
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Edited by - F3jeb on 09/28/2005 6:02:48 PM |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 6:41:33 PM
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Whether or not there is a Master's class I want to compete directly against the Masters. If I have no way of determining how I did against Tom, Josh, Mike and other top flyers I am more lokely NOT to come to contests. They are the ones I have my sights on and where I feel fantastic if I do well against them.
Just think of a MoM contest where Masters fly against Masters, Experts against Experts and Sportsmen against Sportsmen. I will never be in a group with the Masters, I'll never fly against them, and I will have little idea how I performed relative to them. Even though Tom wipped my a.. last weekend at LISF, I was delighted to fly against him and to perform reasonably close to him. I felt great the round where Mike got buried by me and Tom. Given that the ESL membership wants more MoM, I am dead set against Masters.
Can I elect to be a Master? If I can, I want to be one, even if I place last in Masters every time!
I guess you all know how I feel now, and I'll stop posting here.
Anker |
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Phil Barnes
100 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 7:41:17 PM
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Anker, I hope you don't stop posting. We need your input.
I don't see why it matters so intensely whether or not there is a masters class. All ESL contests (except LISF) have everybody flying against everybody else. The class designation is only some arbitrary way of distributing plaques. You always know who scored the most points and how well you performed relative to everyone else. The class designation of sportsman or expert has not blinded you to the results of the contestants in the other class. The addition of a third designation would not blind you either. At the end of the day you still have a list of scores with the highest score at the top and the lowest score at the bottom. Just to the left of each score would be an "S" an "E" or an "M". The guy's name next to the highest "E" gets the biggest plaque for expert class and the guy whos name is next to the highest "S" gets the biggest plaque for sportsman class. The only thing the designation does is decide who gets the plaques. The contest itself is exactly the same and would still be the same even with twenty class designations.
As for LISF: I don't think John, Hans and Paul would choose to split off the masters into segregated flight groups. I give them credit for enough common sense to see that that would kill their contest. Nobody would want to see that.
Just for the record: I wouldn't have multiple classes at all. As far as I'm concerned we all just fly in the same contest and whoever scores the most wins. An arbitrary system to distribute plaques has no meaning to me. But I also don't see it as the end of the world if others do want more classes. You don't need to change anything to get me to come to contests. I'll still come even if you do change things a bit. If new classes will entice others to come out then I'm all for it. I just don't understand the panic that a masters class instills in some people. The contest itself remains unchanged. You can compare your performance to anyone at the contest now and that wont change either.
The LSF point: I do not see the advent of a masters class as an oportunity for someone to get an LSF win by not flying against the masters. I've read the LSF rules interpretations;
http://www.silentflight.org/LSF_Base/Epiphany.html
My position would be that you would have to finish first overall at the contest to earn an LSF win. The class designations would have no meaning for an LSF win. The ESL rules could be written and the LSF people could be consulted to be sure that this would be so. |
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ljb0001
37 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 9:45:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by anker@ankersoft.com
If I have no way of determining how I did against Tom, Josh, Mike and other top flyers I am more lokely NOT to come to contests. They are the ones I have my sights on and where I feel fantastic if I do well against them.
Anker
Anker,
I agree with you 100%. To me, competing against Mike, Tom and Josh is what the ESL is all about. I consider it my personal Mt. Everest. Frankly, at this point I don't see how I will ever beat those guys but I rejoice at the challenge and will continue to work hard to improve my skills. Maybe someday I'll fly and land well enough to give them a run for their money.
Everybody else can take the plaques. The only thing I want to see is my name ahead of those three guys.
Luis |
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mikel
106 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 10:20:30 PM
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Anker,
There are provisions for moving back to Sportsman class. What Experts qualify to move back to Sportsman? |
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Dave Walter
18 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 12:58:52 AM
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There seems to be some confusion over exactly how this Master class will be treated during the contest and for scoring purposes. Here's my understanding of Tom Broeski's proposal:
1. The Master class consists of the Top 5 pilots from the previous year.
2. During competition, a Master pilot is treated just like we treat an Expert now. The Master flies in the Expert flight group. The Master's final score is still a percentage of the best score of the day, even if that score was earned by an Expert.
3. At the completion of the contest, the Expert awards are presented to the top Expert pilots. The Master pilots would not be given any trophies, but I would recommend that the top Master pilots be called by name and their overall place in the competition stated. If they do well, they should still get public recognition.
4. The overall standings maintained by the ESL scorekeeper throughout the season should keep the Master pilots in with the Experts. As someone else suggested, a Master pilot is just another Expert with perhaps a star next to the name. The Experts and Masters must be scored together in order to determine who will be in the Master class next year.
5. The rules for Sportsman remain the same as before.
6. At the end of the season, the top ten awards are presented. For Sportsman there is no change. For Expert and Master, we need to make a decision: I propose that regardless of class (Expert or Master), the top ten pilots are awarded ESL season trophies. The top five become the Master class for the next season. And the top Master of the current season has his name inscribed on the Top Master trophy. I like the Stanley Cup concept... one nice trophy you get to hang on to for a year and show all your friends, impress co-workers, etc. Then you bring it to the year end contest so it's available for the next winner. Of course, we could also present a conventional award that stays with the pilot permanently.
Tom B: Have I stated your case for the Master class correctly?
Dave
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jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 08:52:37 AM
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I would like to add that if we adopt the master class (seems likely)
We do so provisionaly. I propose that if it approves
The first year is provisional.
We then vote again to either continue or not provisionaly for the next year
Then at the EOS for 2007 we vote to permanently keep it or not.
At one of my clubs it lasted no more than 2 years. So I would like to keep this in the forefront for the next 2 years.
2005 EOS adopted
2006 First EOS again provisioanly voted on
2007 Vote to keep or not permanent rule
Just my opinion, but it is easier to do it this way then to overturn it if it fails the other way.
Also the people who support it should show up and vote to support the masters class... don't leave it up to everyone else to vote for the future.. And show up for the contests... This is designed to get the guys back who aren't showing.
Jeff Steifel |
Edited by - jsteifel on 09/29/2005 09:11:09 AM |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 09:12:27 AM
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Oh!
If that's the case, then Masters Class isn't a class at all. Its simply a different way of distributing wood to Experts. Since I don't care either way about wood, simply about how well I fly, then I will take a neutral position. It will feel very strange to take 1'st place Expert wood home having ended up in 6th place, however! I also suspect the ones who will end up in Masters won't care too much if all its about is distribution of epoxy mixing trays.
I think its silly, doubt it will make a difference, but I don't think it will hurt, now that I understand.
Thanks for setting me, and probably a few others, straight, Dave.
Anker |
Edited by - Anker on 09/29/2005 09:13:11 AM |
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mikel
106 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 1:07:28 PM
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I don't use the epoxy mixing trays. They are too heavy to put on my gram scale. Actually, my favorites are the ones in picture frames since they are the easiest to recycle/reuse.
Anyway, I think we should have a class to count the number of new sailplane pilots you
succeeded in bringing to ESL contests. The real reward is in helping out others and introducing others to this fine sport.
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dalehart
4 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2005 : 10:07:39 PM
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I don't feel the Master's class as proposed will truly solve any problems. I think we would be better off focusing on gaining more Sportsman pilots. If we are losing a significant number of Expert pilots because they do not feel competitive, then it might be worthwhile assigning classes each year based on the previous year's average performance. Personally, I still don’t feel you have won a contest unless you perform better than every other pilot at the field that day. Adding another class doesn’t really change anything.
If we do go ahead with a Masters class, I would like to suggest a change that would make the class more meaningful. How about adding 5 minutes to the task times for Masters? At least this way winning Expert class would mean something, since they would not be flying the same event as Masters. Taking this one step further, how about a typical contest being 7 minute maxes for Sportsman, 10 minute maxes for Expert, and 12 or 15 minute maxes for Masters? That would challenge our best pilots, and make Sportsman an easier class for beginners to start out in. This would be closer to how R/C pattern is flown, where each class is a stepping-stone to the next class. As you move up to a new class, not only do you fly against better pilots, but also the event itself becomes more challenging.
Dale |
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gldrgidr
22 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 1:06:38 PM
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>>>>7 minute maxes for Sportsman, 10 minute maxes for Expert
This difference in tasks for the classes would be even more appropriate in hlg competition. There is such a vast difference between the experts and the sportsman in hlg competition.
But this discussion is about TD. sorry.
Would the current TD scoring software allow a difference in tasks? I guess for TD you would just wind up with lower scores for the sportsman class. |
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One year trial Master's class: Dave Walter
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