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flyeslhost
158 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2005 : 12:52:53 PM
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Sent on Sunday, September 25, 2005 at 07:44 PM
At this time 79 responses have been received out of 169
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flyeslhost
158 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 4:24:07 PM
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[moved from open forums]
Have we missed an opportunity?
Should we try seeded man on man... Please view the OVSS link I previously posted. www.cincinnatisoaring.org/pfs_momg.htm
It might actually be interesting to try .. Does it make it fairer??? probably not.. more intersting ??? having the top pilots flying against the top pilots...
Does anyone think it is worth trying a couple of times.. Once wouldn't be enough since the first time we have to get used to it and figure it out.
Will that bring anyone back..?
Jeff Steifel |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 4:47:15 PM
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I am all for trying seeded MoM. It does appear to need a scoring program designed for it. Dale, are you up to modifying yours?
Anker |
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gldrgidr
22 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 7:42:11 PM
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| Can you define exactly what you mean by man-on-man contests? In most hobbies and sports a man-on-man competition would involve only two competitors at a time. |
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jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 10:30:13 PM
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Man on Man.
This is where a group (in the ESL it is usually 4) fly together. The launches are close together since we have 4 winches. You are not competeing against 20 other pilots, you are only competeing against the four pilots in your group. The winner gets the 1000 and everyone else gets a percentage of the winning time. You don't need to fly the max, only beat the group. So if the task was 10 minutes and you flew for 6:30 and the next closest was 4:30 you win, you get 1000 and the 4:30 gets a 692. I won't discuss landings, its unimportant for now. This repeats for all the rounds.
Seeded Man On Man
The same as man on man, with the addition that the groups are formed for the first round by either random draw, or estimating the best group then the next group, and the next group. The next round is formed from the top scoring pilots, so you would take the 4 top scoring and fill them in one group, then the next top 4 and they form the next group, then the next top 4 ... and so on. A great description of man on man can be found here.http://www.cincinnatisoaring.org/pfs_momg.htm
My opinion
My opinion is that in some respects it might be more fair to some pilots, but in other respects it might not. You are always flying against like ranked pilots, after a few rounds it is supposed to really work itself out. I see the merits of it. I would love to try it and find out if it is as good as the OVSS guys claim. I don't think we will know until we try if for at least a few contests. The first contest we will be learning the next couple getting used to it. Then we should be able to judge.
quote:
Originally posted by gldrgidr
Can you define exactly what you mean by man-on-man contests? In most hobbies and sports a man-on-man competition would involve only two competitors at a time.
Jeff Steifel |
Edited by - jsteifel on 09/27/2005 10:31:12 PM |
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jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 2:47:55 PM
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I would like to offer an opinion on the different formats
MOM (MAN ON MAN)
The fairest of the contests when compared to call up or open winch.
Pilots fly in the same air. There is NO LUCK FACTOR. All pilots launch together, all get the same air, or get to read off each other. A pilot can spank the others by going off and being the lone wolf and catching air while the others sink, or all make their time, or all don't make their time.
Open winch
Open winch allows the pilot to pick the time they choose to launch in a given window. Usually a pilot pairs with a timer and one usually agrees to the first half of the window and the other the second.. but not always. So if the window is 40minutes then one pilot has anytime in the first 20 to launch and the other anytime in the second 20 minutes. You get to pick your air. So everyone should make there time. But you are also flying against everyone.Sometimes the down cycles are longer than a window half. Especially when it is way overbuilt with cumulus. That's when the luck factor enters. But since it is open window you try to wait it out. But the luck factor still enters.
Call up
The most unfair contest of them all. The pilots are called up and required to launch at that moment, one at a time. By the time all the pilots launch the air will have changed. The morning can be the worst. The first pilots getting iffy air while the later pilots getting the newly warmed air. As the day goes on the luck factor just keeps increasing.. you either get a good cycle or you don't. To say there is always good air is a lie. There isn't always good air. This type of contest should be avoided in the ESL. It should be a skill contest, not a luck contest.
Seeded MOM
As above in MOM the fairest of the contests. BUT is it fairer than mom??? I can't say.. We will have to experience it to know.
Jeff Steifel |
Edited by - jsteifel on 09/28/2005 2:48:34 PM |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 09:18:30 AM
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Put me down as being very strongly in favor of more MoM contests. I'll love to try seeded MoM.
Anker |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2005 : 06:34:44 AM
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Jeff,
I think many are in favor of MOM, but still is a dessision left for the CD to make. I am sure many wouldn't mind switching to MOM format, but what can we do to help the CDs run a more succesfull MOM? By far the master MOM CD is John Huff, maybe we can get some imput on what is need it to run a succesfull MOM
I also think it should be desided early enough who will run MOM contests, seeded or un-seeded, I preffer un-seeded I am trying to loose some weight, ok, one won't hurt ;-)
Jose |
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dalehart
4 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2005 : 10:56:50 PM
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I doubt switching to MOM format will help raise attendance at a contest, but the change might help keeps things interesting. My biggest fear is that if it is not done right, we could lose contestants in the long run. It takes a lot more effort to run a good contest using MOM. The easiest format by far to CD is open winch. You tell the pilots when to start flying a round, when it ends, and how long to fly. After that it pretty much takes care of itself. I know from personal experience as a CD that when you divide up into flight groups, you must call each group to fly on time or the contest comes to a screeching halt.
With a contest consisting of 32 pilots and using 4 winches, there will be 8 flight groups. Multiply that by 8 rounds, and you have 64 times that you must keep the contest moving. That’s why having an excellent flight-line coordinator becomes so important. Without one, contestants are likely to go home feeling disgusted.
I was trying to think of what the effects of seeded MOM are. The main thing it does is create easy and difficult flight groups. After the first two or three rounds, the best pilots will be flying against each other in the same group. If it is an easy day to find lift, they will most likely get scores close to 1000 points each flight. On the other hand, the beginners or pilots having a bad day will end up flying against each other in the easier groups. At least one of them will also get a 1000 point score, even though they did not fly as well as the pilots in the top group. This is not as bad as it sounds, since they will still be stuck with the low score from an earlier round that got them placed in the easier group.
On the bright side, this could make the contest more enjoyable and challenging for the top pilots since they will be flying directly against each other more often. It could also make the contest more enjoyable for the rest of the pilots, since they would be flying against other contestants of equal ability.
As far as whether seeded MOM is more or less fair, I would lean toward feeling it is less fair. If enough rounds are flown, everyone’s scores would progress toward an average score approaching 100%. We could never fly enough rounds for this to happen, but I think you would notice a compressing of the score range when you look at the end-of-season points. The true indication of this would be to look at the raw scores vs. the normalized scores.
If the most important thing is to run a fair contest, it could be worth considering a slightly different method of determining the flight groups. Instead of placing the top pilots after each round in the first flight group, put one in each of the flight groups. This would ensure that each group has a relatively equal level of difficulty. Winning a 1000 points in any group would have equal relevance.
Dale |
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jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 1:36:10 PM
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I don't think it averages out Dale, Look at the nats. All you need is a bad flight and it you aren't going to make it back up the page.
On the other hand if one flight group has a bad round (ALL OF THEM) then mom has done what it is supposed to. Take the luck factor out. It removes that bad air, and the winner is the winner 1000 and everyone is a percentage of the winner.
FAI events are only MOM. They have figured out for the most part the luck factor... Speed is still referred to a luck factor because it is call up. You can't have 4 guys flying speed at a time.
Jeff Steifel |
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dalehart
4 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 7:19:23 PM
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When I talked of the scores averaging out, I was referring to seeded MOM. With random flight groups or following a pre-defined matrix, each flight group will have a similar level of difficulty. With seeded MOM, the lower flight groups would have less-skilled pilots, therefore making it easier to get a good score. Their score from the first bad round, which got them into the easier flight group, will still haunt them the rest of day and prevent them from moving too far up the chart. My impression was that the normalized scores would move up higher than normal in the lower groups compared to the raw scores. The scores could also tend to be pushed down in the top groups due the the stiff competition. This would not be an issue if conditions were such that everyone could make their times.
Again, I was only reffering to seeded MOM in these comments. In spite of what I see as potential drawbacks, it may be worth considering for the very same reasons: Tougher competition for the best pilots and easier competition for the rest.
Dale |
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mikel
106 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 9:16:41 PM
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Hey, I finished 6th in 2M with a 48 point flight.... Who says you can't make it back up the page with enough rounds.
MOM is nice for some contests, but I don't think it's going to change much. Everyone talks about luck. Well just about every popular sport out there has some luck in it. Be it a bad lie or a bad bounce or any other kind of thing that Murphy can come up with.
We used to have lots of call up contests. We needed that because that was the only way to get the maximum amount of flights in for a large group. That still pretty much holds up unless you have a huge number of winches out on the field like at the Nats. Then your flying becomes constrained by the number of pilots you can have out on frequencies. With a small number of winches, the call up will always be the best for keeping the winches busy.
With a smaller contest, you have other problems, like lack of help. That's why we ended up with some of the contests going open winch. Open winch "luck" actually gets worse with larger numbers of pilots. That's because it no longer is "open"
and you often have to wait if the air is really good. I'm sure someone could come up with a simulation and show where that transition occurs, but I'll guess that it's around 40 pilots.
Unless you go to a flight window and let everyone launch when they want to launch, even man on man still has the luck of the launch order. Being first to launch in an empty sky can be worse in terms of luck factor than having other pilots in the sky in a call up. Lots of "winch" bagging goes on in MOM contests where there is a launch order. The nats had to resort to a "random" draw to fix that. I just pick the middle if given a choice. Don't have to be first, don't have to be last, and
you get to see the air the first pilots launch into.
If you can't enjoy flying even with luck, you probably need to do something else. |
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dalehart
4 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 9:47:18 PM
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I don't find anything wrong with a bit luck being involved, especially if it is good luck! Lots of people enjoy poker tournements, and that certainly mixes skill, experience, and luck.
I know exactly what you mean about the launch order. At LISF I ended up launching last a couple times. I found myself watching the planes that launched before me as much as my own as I was going up the winchline. If someone is going to hand you a preview of what lies ahead, you might as well take it. I would really love to see simultaneous launches, if it wasn't so risky.
As far as call-up versus open winch, I agree that around 40 contestants is the break point. While CD'ing contests at DBSF, I have found that flight groups work great to keep things moving at a steady pace when there are 40 to 50 pilots and lots of channel conflicts. With 30 pilots, it's not worth the trouble. Things move along well enough on their own, without long lines developing. When using flight groups, I tend to use the variable flight time format to even out the luck factor. With a 5, 7, and three 10's in any order, it doesn't matter which round you get stuck with bad air, as long as it doesn't happen too often. Group A might have bad air in Round 1, and Group C in round 3. As long as you still have that 5 minute task available, it works out ok.
Dale |
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Man-on-Man contest: Jeff Steifel
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