| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Anker
83 Posts |
 Posted - 09/26/2005 : 7:01:35 PM
|
Seeded MOM is a handicapping system which ensures that you win contests when your performance exceeds what is "expected" from you. It no more fair or unfair than any other system, it just rewards something different. I personally like rewarding improvement in performance, but such a system can be misused badly through "sandbagging", which is deliberately underperforming to bring down the "expected" performance. In addition, you need to have a track record to enable handicapping. The "most improved" award given out every year is designed to reward improvements in performance without going all the way to a handicapping system.
Anker |
 |
|
|
jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 7:17:23 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by anker@ankersoft.com
Seeded MOM is a handicapping system which ensures that you win contests when your performance exceeds what is "expected" from you. It no more fair or unfair than any other system, it just rewards something different. I personally like rewarding improvement in performance, but such a system can be misused badly through "sandbagging", which is deliberately underperforming to bring down the "expected" performance. In addition, you need to have a track record to enable handicapping. The "most improved" award given out every year is designed to reward improvements in performance without going all the way to a handicapping system.
Anker
I am not sure how you could sandbag.
If you lose your heat you have lost the 1000 and get moved according to your placing.
So unless I don't understand what you mean, I think you can't underperform. For the most part you know who belongs in the top group, the question of the second is pretty much understood the next groups are hard because of the inconsistent nature. (not a put down please don't misunderstand) So even for the first round we can probably predict who belongs in the top 2 or 3 groupings. And as the OVSS page states it pretty much shakes itself out after 1 round, the more the better.
Jeff Steifel |
|
|
|
jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 7:25:00 PM
|
So I've got to bring the topic back...
Does anyone have an idea how to bring more people back to the contests.
Can we do something about any of the listed problems?
I know we have a survey... But can any of the current or past members who don't attend add to what we need to do to get you back..???
I've presented the problems, I am looking for help on what is the solution. What will get you back... please be reasonable in your requests.. "Going back 20 years in time is not an option" We can't do that. But there must be something that would attract you back.
Also understand that all we are doing now is talking, and getting ideas, hashing out the pro's and con's of an idea... Nothing is decided yet. We have a End of Season contest and the YEARLY ESL MEETING coming up.. At that point ideas are voted on.. So if you have an idea... toss it into the ring now let us discuss the merits and come to the meeting to vote for your own idea.
Jeff Steifel |
|
|
|
jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 9:51:12 PM
|
I'm copying an email sent out. I thought this was a great email that Frank sent out with a lot of positive ideas.
Jeff,
To add some suggestions to bring back flyers:
1. Mentor program - better flyers assigned for the day to less experienced
flyers.
2. during lunch offer a clinic on flying aimed at various skill levels and
topics
3. raffle planes off with free tickets going to rookie year contestants
4. Handicap system - leveling out the benefits of a more expensive ship so
that a cheaper/older plane can be competitive.
5.Better adherence to sportsman moving up(like it or not) and weaker experts
moving down. Maybe the classification should be done like this:
a) For the first year flying you can go into either class.
b) After your first year, your standings as a whole places the top
half into expert and the bottom half in sportsman. Maybe have a
discressionary region in the middle that with a recommendation or two from
some experts that they can move up so as to compete in expert.
6. Maybe mix expert with sportsman for a few rounds. I say this because
sometimes an expert will see things a sportsman may not and maybe flying
with an expert will help just like when you have an expert time for a
sportsman. The timing /mentoring thing can be done as well. This will also
facilitate part 5 and better weigh each person against each other for next
year's placement.
7. lunchtime clinics - on the students as well as teacher's plane. This
will give the student the opportunity to feel what a more expensive and well
trimmed plane feels like. This can be on a sailplane or electric or
whatever the field allows.(I know my wife still can't get over when John
aided her in flying his Mantis. She's even pushing me to complete mine and
to buy her more batteries for her Aerobird Extreme.) Killing off one round
to help those less experienced to fly better wouldn't hurt too much. Maybe
get the senior members to run the clinics and to help pass on their wisdom.
8. Pre contest clinic/ hand on trimming of sportsman's plane by experienced
pilots - I know first hand that an expert can setup any plane to fly better
than most sportsman and can help make suggestions for the current flying
conditions. This can be nothing more that a single pre contest flight and
some pointers given in a one on one or group situation.
9. Offer activities (besides working at the contest) to encourage non flyers
to attend so as to maybe set the hook into them TO fly. Throw a bunch of
free flights at a boyscout troop/soccer league to fly during lunch for
example.
10. ADVERTISE the contest/club in Model Aviation , hobby related and other
magazines(say in the boy scout magazine, etc.), on the web, in various
newsgroups besides sailplane related, post signs early in the year in local
hobby shops and in online hobby shops, etc. If I wasn't a regular
attendant of the WRAM show I wouldn't even know the LISF existed even though
I was an avid reader of various model plane magazines. Maybe we should try
tapping other wells for water instead of going to the same dried out one.
11. Offer a Golden Wings division for older fliers to compete. Why should a
good flyer who may have some age problems related be prevented from
competing. They have far more knowledge and experience not to get them to
come to the field. I have to thank Lenny Hauf for his many words of wisdom
over the years. It has bothered me and others deeply not to see him compete
any longer. It is always good to see him and others return to the field and
not just for the hard work that they put in during the contest.
I am not trying to imply but from my suggestions as a new contestant I guess
that it sounds that the biggest burden lies in the hands of the experts/
experienced builder/flyers. It is up to them to pass their knowledge on to
those that don't have a familial relationship to a better, more experienced
pilot and have not yet acquired it on their own. As an active club member I
have started to get the feeling that people avoid the meetings before a
contest and the field during a contest because of the fear and pressure to
work a contest. If there would be other reasons to attend besides work,
maybe more less - experienced pilots will attend. I am not saying that
working a contest isn't fun but it can be awkward and difficult to get
advice from someone at a contest who is trying to compete. Most people
wouldn't want to be bothered in this situation so they pass the same
courtesy on to those flying in the contest. Maybe the offer could be a free
clinic(one on one or group) for working a contest besides a free lunch.
Otherwise charge $5 for a free clinic(like the $5 - free lunch) or include
the clinic in with the lunch.
These are just a few suggestions that might shine some light on improving
contestant attendance.
Sincerely,
Frank Nisita
Jeff Steifel |
Edited by - jsteifel on 09/26/2005 9:53:10 PM |
|
|
|
Phil Barnes
100 Posts |
|
|
F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 12:17:16 AM
|
Ok guys,
Jeff thank you for being the catalyst and initiating this thread, as you all know we most recently ran a small survey based on some of the must disused ideas in this thread. Due to time constraints and wanting to move Everyone’s agenda forward I think there will have to be some organization around how the general population feels. I think we should have four new threads covering the major topics and with the goal of putting together a proposal for each one of these topics which can then be presented and voted on at the EOS meting.
My experience in previous EOS meetings, has been, many ideas flying and proposal made that never get a chance due partly to the fact there is very little time for discussing, the same thing can happen here if we don't give ourselves the time to explore the ideas people most support with a definite goal.
There were four major initiatives in the poll, Man-on-Man contest, Mentoring program, One year trial Master's class, and addressing the top reasons people don't travel to contests (which will be categorized)
I hope that each topics gets champion by an individual who have showed knowledge, enthusiasm and farness in the manner, for instance Phil comes to mind in the area of mentoring, he does have the presentation skills necessary for such events, he also has the experience in participating in other clinics during HL contest as well running numerous work shop at his own shop and above all strong convictions but fair.
I propose Anker runs the "top reasons people don't travel", I hope Jeff would be interested in championing the “Man-on-man” discussion and I or Dave Walter will host the Master's class
Now, we could spend the entire winter discussing just these four topics, but we only have two weeks, where options have to be explored, questioned and agreed upon, then group leader will have to summarize it for EOS proposal.
I propose this week for introduction, guidelines and brain storming, next week can be use coming to an agreement and for the group leader to write summary, which they can present at the EOS.
So we are going to break up in groups, everyone is encourage to participate and we are going to let democracy takes it’s course.
Thank you
Jose E. Bruzual
Editor/Webmaster
|
Edited by - F3jeb on 09/27/2005 01:10:11 AM |
|
|
|
F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 12:27:19 AM
|
| I should post the survey results here by tomorrow after noon, then we can brake up in groups. We had a nice sample of 169 people with a 50% return a dream by any means. |
|
|
|
tbroeski
24 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 06:40:36 AM
|
#1 I really like the "tag along" idea.
#2 Jose, it would be good if you Phil or Josh or the person who proposed it, host the Master Class discussion. It was quashed pretty quickly the last time it was brought up a couple years ago.
I also think a hard look at the expert/sportsman classes would be good. If you take the scores/contests and pick a cutoff number for the classes, then you would fly in that class the following year.
Eg: 75 + is expert, under 75 points is sportsman. You actually have to work at it to stay in expert.
TB
quote:
Originally posted by Phil
We should encourage "tag alongs". This would be where a sportsman is invited to go out and observe a flyer with his timer. The timer and/or pilot could explain what they are doing during the flight. "The wind just shifted that way so I'm following the vector" etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Jose
Ok guys,
I propose Anker runs the "top reasons people don't travel", I hope Jeff would be interested in championing the “Man-on-man” discussion and I or Dave Walter will host the Master's class
Jose E. Bruzual
Editor/Webmaster
T&G
32 Mount View Dr
Afton, VA 22920
540 943-3356 |
Edited by - tbroeski on 09/27/2005 07:18:31 AM |
|
|
|
F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 09:18:21 AM
|
Tom,
thank you for making that point, so let me clarify the process a bit more, there will be NO crushing of initiative in this groups, we will take our cues from the poll results. The groups will be use to hash out a motion which makes everyone feel good about it, not anyone person agenda in particular.
The fate of these proposal will meet it destiny at the EOS meting.
I don't expect there will be any "you" statements, bulling, or yelling since the tone will be set by the survey questions, results and NEUTRAL guidance of the group monitor. So if you plan to be passionate about your topic I would suggest to be a contributor in place of a group leader/monitor since we have to be more of a guide.
THank you
Jose |
|
|
|
jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 09:50:37 AM
|
I totally agree ... we need to discuss it here and work it out before we get to the meeting. That way it can be voted on. This is the place to discuss it...Not as much at the meeting.
Now that we have this forum let's use it.
Too many things have gone to committee and been dropped after the EOS because there is no other meeting to get it enacted until the end of next season.
Let's discuss the merits here and come to the table with some voteable items.
quote:
Originally posted by Jose
Ok guys,
Jeff thank you for being the catalyst and initiating this thread, as you all know we most recently ran a small survey based on some of the must disused ideas in this thread. Due to time constraints and wanting to move Everyone’s agenda forward I think there will have to be some organization around how the general population feels. I think we should have four new threads covering the major topics and with the goal of putting together a proposal for each one of these topics which can then be presented and voted on at the EOS meting.
My experience in previous EOS meetings, has been, many ideas flying and proposal made that never get a chance due partly to the fact there is very little time for discussing, the same thing can happen here if we don't give ourselves the time to explore the ideas people most support with a definite goal.
There were four major initiatives in the poll, Man-on-Man contest, Mentoring program, One year trial Master's class, and addressing the top reasons people don't travel to contests (which will be categorized)
I hope that each topics gets champion by an individual who have showed knowledge, enthusiasm and farness in the manner, for instance Phil comes to mind in the area of mentoring, he does have the presentation skills necessary for such events, he also has the experience in participating in other clinics during HL contest as well running numerous work shop at his own shop and above all strong convictions but fair.
I propose Anker runs the "top reasons people don't travel", I hope Jeff would be interested in championing the “Man-on-man” discussion and I or Dave Walter will host the Master's class
Now, we could spend the entire winter discussing just these four topics, but we only have two weeks, where options have to be explored, questioned and agreed upon, then group leader will have to summarize it for EOS proposal.
I propose this week for introduction, guidelines and brain storming, next week can be use coming to an agreement and for the group leader to write summary, which they can present at the EOS.
So we are going to break up in groups, everyone is encourage to participate and we are going to let democracy takes it’s course.
Thank you
Jose E. Bruzual
Editor/Webmaster
Jeff Steifel |
Edited by - jsteifel on 09/27/2005 2:02:36 PM |
|
|
|
flyeslhost
158 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 5:02:24 PM
|
Ok, The results are posted:
http://www.flyesl.com/surveys/initiative_2005.htm
Some interesting feedback, lets try to help the ESL bringing some new people in by contributing to the major topics and posting anything else that comes up here.
Thank you
Jose |
|
|
|
Lite2bolt
1 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 12:04:51 PM
|
| Hello I am from Mich. Our club the toledo weak signals have a monday night soaring league. Rules and such can be found at www.toledo expo.com click on the members area then you can find our monday night league. We currently had 41 pilots showing for monday night. Some fly outside contest. Most just fly the club contest. I think more would go to outside contest if they would just feel like being part of a team effort. when you share travel expensses and have comraderie. I think it helps others to go to contest. Another answer maybe come from when i was shooting competition in the police combat pistole league. we had guys from Canada,Ohio,Ind,and all over Mich. The placing in catagories like master,expert,sharpshooter and marksman. was done by your score. if the Max score is 500 and you shot from 400 to 500 you shot in the masters class. From 300 to 400 you shot the expert class. and so on.. what this did was give the ones whose skill was less coul still win in there catagory. you always shot your best becuase you never knew where the break in the diffrent classes would be. This stopped the sandbaggers. just food for thought. |
|
|
|
mikel
106 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 11:04:28 PM
|
| Cumberland soar for fun had a bigger turnout than a lot of ESL contests. I was probably the only one there that flew in 6 or more ESL contests this year. |
|
|
|
aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2006 : 12:23:51 PM
|
I am curious as to whether there has been an improved turn out at the ESL events. Have any of the advertisemetns helped?
Are clinics drawing any response? I did not see any kind of clinic at the LISF event this past weekend, but the weather was bad too.
So what has been happening?
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
aeajr on the forums
Long Island Silent Flyers |
|
|
|
mikel
106 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2006 : 10:54:35 PM
|
Ed,
Come on out to some of the other ESL contests and find out. While you're at it, bring along some friends to share the ride. You missed SKSS and you're not registered for DBSF ;-) |
|
|
|
aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2006 : 11:01:36 PM
|
I flew LISF and have flown the LISF events for 2 years.
I am now looking into a more competitive plane to replace my old, heavy Airtronics Legend. If you know anyone selling a Mantis, or similar, in very good shape, let me know.
Once I upgrade the plane, I will look into some travel to the states around New York. The Legend is OK for our field but I would like to have a plane that will allow me a better chance to enter the contest for real. I don't have ot win, but I would like to really enter the contest.
I have received a couple of recommendations toward the Thermal Dancer from PoleCat. Looks interesting but I don't know the plane.
http://www.polecataero.com/products/thermal-dancer/
Anyway, how has attendence been?
Have there been any clinics of any kind?
Just curious.
Soon!
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
aeajr on the forums
Long Island Silent Flyers
Edit: Ordered the Thermal Dancer. Should have it late July. |
Edited by - aeajr on 07/01/2006 05:59:35 AM |
|
|
|
kzimmerm
4 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2006 : 11:10:31 AM
|
Just as a followup.... doing some thinking here. How difficult would it be for either the CD or someone appointed by the CD to publish (short form) the contest results on RSCE? I would seem to think that by showing activity to the rest of the world couldn't hurt.
Any comments?
Kurt
|
|
|
|
aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 08:58:50 AM
|
I just posted a proposed Novice Class guideline for ESL events.
The thread is here:
http://forums.flyesl.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=215
Please comment on it, pro or con.
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
aeajr on the forums
Long Island Silent Flyers |
|
|
|
Fly2High
70 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2006 : 4:44:08 PM
|
Maybe this should be a new topic but why doesn't the ESL host an 'ESL BBQ' where there is no contest, just a fun fly to get people together. It will be say in the middle of the contest season. It would be hosted by a different club each year. Just something to get poeple together outside a contest environment. you could have a little aerotow, winch, F3J and hand launch flying at different times of the day/weekend. Food would be up to the hosting club. Maybe have clinics setup throughout the day. Some of the proceeds go to the ESL and some to the hosting club. We would advertise it in major magazines. Maybe this would draw in more from the local areas to join the hosting club and get interested in the various types of launch/competition.
This might spark people to get into sailplanes and compete. |
|
|
|
aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2006 : 10:30:44 AM
|
Just to close out my series of posts on this subject. There will be a Novice class opened for the LISF2 event in September, if we get interest.
If you know anyone who is interested, they can get all the info here.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=542330&pp=15
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
aeajr on the forums
Long Island Silent Flyers |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Low contest turnout
Forum Locked
