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Anker
83 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2005 : 08:34:04 AM
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Dave brought up the hotel expense issue.
Fritz has been putting up pilots at his house for years, Gordon Stratton did the same when he was active, John Hauff still does it, I believe, and I tried a couple of times, but the competition from "Chez Fritz" was too intense.
How about those of us who have room to spare (kids flown the coop), putting up a few out of town pilots, and establishing a convention that those who are put up invite the host and is wife (or husband) to dinner? We could make our beds available on a first come basis.
I will start off by offering room at my house next year. I can sleep at least 3, and possibly more pilots.
This would put a big dent into the cost side of the equation.
Anker |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 08:43:03 AM
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I am deeply sceptical of the Masters Class concept.
I, and I am sure several others, would hate not to be competing against the Toms, Joshes and Mikes.
Just below the Toms, Joshes and Mikes, there are Daves, Jeffs, and Tonys who are almost as good, and I predict that anyone who feels like connon fodder today will continue to feel like cannon fodder in a Masters Class environment. I may go through my record and provide a statistical proof in the next few days.
I am personally in the "between cannon fodder and the Daves, Jeffs and Tonys", and my personal goal is to make the top 10 next year, Something I can achieve if I work at it and stick with my current planes. I know from bitter experience that buying the latest moldie is NOT the answer, it takes me about a year to really get the feel of a new plane.
Anker
PS The names Tom, Josh, Mike, Dave, Jeff and Tony are arbitrarily chosen and any resemblance with actual persons is purely coincidental. :-) |
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jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 10:15:35 AM
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I resemble that guy Jeff...I like to think I keep those guys on their toes once in a while or can be a spoiler
I was looking at OVSS and they have a Master class.....
They have a Master Class and Sportsman... NO EXPERT!
They are very similar in makeup to the ESL.
Please visit their website http://www.cincinnatisoaring.org/index_new.htm
I also went to the SC2 site. There I got scores:
http://www.sc-2.org/web/index.php?module=documents&JAS_DocumentManager_op=downloadFile&JAS_File_id=12
They have Expert , Intermediate, RES, and sportsman classes.
Please notice that sportsman appears to be a beginner class,
Intermediate a sportsman class
and Expert a masters class...
Notice the low number of intermediate and sportsman.
quote:
Originally posted by anker@ankersoft.com
I am deeply sceptical of the Masters Class concept.
I, and I am sure several others, would hate not to be competing against the Toms, Joshes and Mikes.
Just below the Toms, Joshes and Mikes, there are Daves, Jeffs, and Tonys who are almost as good, and I predict that anyone who feels like connon fodder today will continue to feel like cannon fodder in a Masters Class environment. I may go through my record and provide a statistical proof in the next few days.
I am personally in the "between cannon fodder and the Daves, Jeffs and Tonys", and my personal goal is to make the top 10 next year, Something I can achieve if I work at it and stick with my current planes. I know from bitter experience that buying the latest moldie is NOT the answer, it takes me about a year to really get the feel of a new plane.
Anker
PS The names Tom, Josh, Mike, Dave, Jeff and Tony are arbitrarily chosen and any resemblance with actual persons is purely coincidental. :-)
Jeff Steifel |
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tbroeski
24 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2005 : 11:09:03 AM
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How would you not be competing against them? Unless they (or you) decided not to fly. This is just a trophy thing and the overall would not change. If you made it in the top 5 you would be rewarded with a chance to compete for your name on the Soaring Master's Trophy. You take it home for a year. The reward for being in the top 5 is being called a Master. It seems simple enough to me. It is NOT like being bumped up as it is from Sportsman to Expert, you have to make it every year to stay there. This is a reward for the top 5 and opens the door for trophies for the Experts who aren't quite Masters.
Tom
quote:
Originally posted by anker@ankersoft.com
I am deeply sceptical of the Masters Class concept.
I, and I am sure several others, would hate not to be competing against the Toms, Joshes and Mikes.
Just below the Toms, Joshes and Mikes, there are Daves, Jeffs, and Tonys who are almost as good, and I predict that anyone who feels like connon fodder today will continue to feel like cannon fodder in a Masters Class environment. I may go through my record and provide a statistical proof in the next few days.
I am personally in the "between cannon fodder and the Daves, Jeffs and Tonys", and my personal goal is to make the top 10 next year, Something I can achieve if I work at it and stick with my current planes. I know from bitter experience that buying the latest moldie is NOT the answer, it takes me about a year to really get the feel of a new plane.
Anker
PS The names Tom, Josh, Mike, Dave, Jeff and Tony are arbitrarily chosen and any resemblance with actual persons is purely coincidental. :-)
T&G
32 Mount View Dr
Afton, VA 22920
540 943-3356 |
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Dave Walter
18 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 01:01:18 AM
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I went to the Cincinnati Soaring web page referenced by Jeff. The OVSS series does sound very similar to the ESL. Here's a paragraph lifted from that page:
"Contest Criteria:
The above clubs at a minimum hold a weekend contest* (two days, two separate unlimited class contests) for participants to have a chance to produce a score. It has become the preferred choice of the vast majority of fliers that the Man-on-Man format and normalized scoring be utilized in OVSS contests, but it is not a requirement to hold contest under this format. Also, at the club’s choice, is the addition of other classes, i.e. two-meter or RES, but it has shown over the history of the series that clubs that focused on and supported long flight times and five or more rounds of flying only unlimited class a day had better attendance." (emphasis mine)
It's interesting that the midwest clubs have evolved a system similar to ours, and have reached the same conclusion on contest format. Well, I guess that conclusion is exactly what is being debated here. In my opinion, when you divide up the flying into multiple pilot classes and multiple plane classes, you water down the competition part of the event.
Just for the record, I'm with Anker and Jeff regarding flying against the best. Even if I'm not in Masters class, I would want to fly against the Tom, Josh, and Mikes of the world (hypothetical of course, no relation to actual people!). If I get a 1st place trophy, it's because I beat everyone, not just the "experts". This is how I measure my progress.
Dave
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Dave Walter
18 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 02:10:38 AM
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A few replies back, Ed Anderson commented on the importance of experts timing for sportsman. It kind of opened my eyes because it hadn't occurred to me that an inexperienced pilot would find that such a valuable experience. In my early flying days, I found that I flew worse when an expert tried to guide me, possibly due to the pressure of being judged by the better pilot, probably because I simply couldn't execute with the precision needed to follow the expert's suggested flight path. Whatever the cause, the results were usually no better than just flying my own instinct.
As a result, when timing for sportsman I generally do it the same as for the experts, just read the air and offer comments on what planes seem to be doing the best. When a gaggle of sportsman are all circling in the same sink, I want to tell the pilot to break out and pursue the lift downwind or ride the tree line, but I bite my tongue because that advice may be death for the inexperienced pilot. He may be shaky at low altitude, or his plane might not have the legs to make it back from down wind. It seems like a flying clinic is better conducted while fun-flying on an off-weekend rather than during a competition, but I could be convinced otherwise.
The second issue is that experts tend to seek out other experts for timing because they are most comfortable with those people and have the greatest confidence in the timer's assessment of the air. This is a competition after all, and you maximize your chances to win when you have the best help. In open window format, people generally pair up with an aquaintance for the entire day. It's a natural thing to do because it eliminates the distraction of searching for a timer every round, but as someone pointed out earlier in this discussion, it can make it really hard for a newcomer to get help. The LISF guys have licked this problem by assigning sportsmen to time for experts and vice versa, but most contests don't impose such order. Maybe they should.
Here comes a controversial observation: When sitting in front of the computer keyboard, the experts say all the right things about helping the inexperienced people, timing for them, drawing them into the hobby, but when they show up for the contest and the competitive juices get flowing, it all goes out the window. I'm certainly guilty of that... I'm focused on flying as well as I can, not on helping someone else fly as well as he can. I occasionally help local beginners on the off-weekends, but I'd really rather be practicing landings. This is my sin, and I need to make amends.
So I'd like to see a few more posts from the less experienced pilots. What kind of advise are they looking for during a flight? When they are timing for an expert, would it help if the expert talked his way through the flight, explaining why he flew in a particular direction, or what prompted him to start circling? Gimme some guidance here...
Dave
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 06:04:01 AM
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Dave,
Hopefully other sportsman can comment, but I will give you my thoughts.
It is true that sometimes I have received advice that I could not execute for one reason or another, but I still appreciated it and have long since thought about how I could use that advice.
I can't read air as well as the experts. I have often been told, after the flight, that I kept flying right through lift, but I didn't realize it and ofcourse now could not go back an ask, "was that lift?"
Sometimes I am flying too fast, and don't realize it.
I received an outstanding tip from Dale yesterday while I was timing for him related to when to circle and when to just do some S turns. That was GOLD!
When I come in for landings, I tend to apply too much flap or crow too soon, But Paul Bell gave me a tip at a club event recently that helped me understand what to do when that happens and how to save the landing. More Gold!
A clinic would be good. However I don't recall seeing any clinics at the 5 LISF ESL events that I have attended. Do the other ESL events have clinics?
It is hard to imagine how I could be better served as a new pilot than to receive expert advice during a contest.
Hopefully other sportsman will comment as well.
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
aeajr on the forums
Long Island Silent Flyers |
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tbroeski
24 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 07:06:03 AM
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Dave, you are in the top 5. If someone earns their way there, like you have, they would be competing for the Big Trophy. You would still get the end of season trophy for being in the top 10 overall.
Why is it that some think stomping everyone in Expert and taking home boxes of trophies is competing. The Master Class would really show how good you are and you Would be competing directly with guys with your flying skills. YOU WOULD STILL BE FLYING AGAINST THE BEST. If you get the big trophy, it WILL be because you beat the best, not just the average flier. When I was in Sportsman, I once beat everybody, but still only got a Sporstman trophy. So, Masters is harder to trophy in, but it doesn't change the competition any.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Walter
Just for the record, I'm with Anker and Jeff regarding flying against the best. Even if I'm not in Masters class, I would want to fly against the Tom, Josh, and Mikes of the world (hypothetical of course, no relation to actual people!). If I get a 1st place trophy, it's because I beat everyone, not just the "experts". This is how I measure my progress.
Dave
T&G
32 Mount View Dr
Afton, VA 22920
540 943-3356 |
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Dave Walter
18 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 09:12:41 AM
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Tom: I'm in the top 5 now only because Josh hasn't posted a 6th score yet. The premier pilots end the year with 6 contest scores well over 90 or 95. I'm scratching my way up, but still not there yet. That level of consistency still eludes me (but watching Tom and Mike and Phil and Josh at the NATS helped enormously).
OK, so do any other experts have a comment on Tom's proposal for Masters class?
Dave
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 2:00:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by aeajr
A clinic would be good. However I don't recall seeing any clinics at the 5 LISF ESL events that I have attended. Do the other ESL events have clinics?
Only the HL series offer clinics and from what I have heard, they are well received, maybe some of the HL guys would like to comment and maybe we should consider having a clink early next season and see how it goes
Jose |
Edited by - F3jeb on 09/25/2005 2:02:54 PM |
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 5:11:32 PM
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Clinic topics - some are discussin and some are in the air stuff:
Key setup tips for full house planes
If your radio can't do everyting, what are the key mixes and when to use them, etc.
Before the launch - which way?
Landing startegy
How to time the landing
How to set-up for landing points
How to use glide path control
Demo?
Hunting for lift
What to look for
What to do and what not to do
Demo?
Hands on time - launch a Sportsman for a flight with an expert coach.
Or
Have an expert launch, then talk thorugh the flight and landing.
Just some ideas
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
aeajr on the forums
Long Island Silent Flyers |
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Phil Barnes
100 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 5:31:58 PM
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I don't have much of an opinion about the Masters class. It does not matter to me what category you list people in for the purpose of handing out trophies. I will always compare my performance to everybody else who flies the same contest. I never flew as a Sportsman in the ESL for this reason. Placing me in Sportsman class would not have prevented me from seeing the performance of the experts.
So I guess I'm in favor of a Masters class if other people want one. maybe that way I wouldn't have to take so many plaques home. Or at least it would become my goal to stay in masters class so I wouldn't have to take plaques home. If other guys want those plaques then I would be happy to let them take them home. I certainly agree that if there is a Masters class then there should not be an additional set of awards presented for that class. I'm quite certain that Tom, Mike and Josh have no desire for any additional plaques(something for Josh's boys might be nice).
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 6:16:15 PM
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Ed,
I think those are good suggestion, but also we are pressed for time during a contest, I think the best time to apply the theory is when you are flying, and leave the clinic for theory and Q&A
MURPHY'S LAWS, "1. If anything can go wrong, it will."... say the clinic is held by the winches, the presenter tries to show the optimal zoom.... their plain explodes, the line brakes, the line gets entangle.... fill in the blank... the audience gets frustrated, the presenter wonders why did he/she signed up for this and the CD gets ticked off... there goes your first and last clinic
A clinic could have some drawing power for new pilots, as long as it is well publicized (I think), where we could recruit top well knowned pilots to host the clinic. I don't mind flying 7 rounds in place of 8 so we can hold a 30/45 minute event which could bring in more pilots. We could start a separate thread to explore this idea in more detail, so when it gets borough up at the EOS more people are informed, understanding the drive behind it, thus allowing for a more informed decision at the time of voting.
Jose |
Edited by - F3jeb on 09/25/2005 6:19:00 PM |
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jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 8:00:46 PM
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Actually there was a clinic in the past. Tom did it ... not for ESL... I asked Tom about it today at LISF and he said it had been done as recently as a couple of years ago.
To Daves' post... I too remember being a beginner... not too long ago. I was exteremely nervous when John Hauff timed for me at the Nats (I blew the flight trying to follow his left right.left) ..
The next time still at the Nats I asked him not to tell me where to go just tell me what the others were doing. He was cool about it, and we were able to work together since... I understand... I am probably guilty of helping a pilot or two into the ground... I remember being more comfortable with mostly Dale, or other sportsman... But you really have to get out of your comfort zone to learn.. My learning curve watching Mike, and Tom, and sometimes getting tips from them were usually big gains. I think this is something that the pilot has to be willing to do... work with an expert. The gain can be large.
Jeff Steifel |
Edited by - jsteifel on 09/25/2005 8:07:43 PM |
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jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 8:06:07 PM
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Ed,
Get out to more than the LISF... Come to the end of season, it's a way to fly more and get better. Sportflying doesn't push you to learn. I know...It gets different when you have to make your time... sport flying lulls you into thinking ... well it ok if I don't find lift.. I'll get it next flight. During a contest it can be frustrating.. because you think you do well during sport flying... but your mind plays tricks on you... you wipe out the relaunches.. During contest flying your realize that every flight is critical.. you start thinking differntly.
What if you had someone stalking you with a gun... you have a gun with one bullet... Are you going to fire it away... no... you are going to make sure it does the job. Same with your launch.. don't waste it.
Jeff Steifel |
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 10:54:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jsteifel
Ed,
Get out to more than the LISF... Come to the end of season, it's a way to fly more and get better. Sportflying doesn't push you to learn. I know...It gets different when you have to make your time... sport flying lulls you into thinking ... well it ok if I don't find lift.. I'll get it next flight. During a contest it can be frustrating.. because you think you do well during sport flying... but your mind plays tricks on you... you wipe out the relaunches.. During contest flying your realize that every flight is critical.. you start thinking differntly.
What if you had someone stalking you with a gun... you have a gun with one bullet... Are you going to fire it away... no... you are going to make sure it does the job. Same with your launch.. don't waste it.
Jeff Steifel
Jeff,
You are right, if I am ever going to be more competitive I would benefit from attending more ESL competitions. This is something I plan to do starting next season.
However, let me clarify my posts.
My comments here have been in response to the original question of why we are not getting more participation. I have been commenting here more as a representative sportsman flyer. I don't know how many relatively NEW sportsman are commenting here.
I am a pretty new flyer. This is only my third season flying anything of any kind. While I am not an accomplished flyer in comparison to all of you, I do spend a lot of time at our field helping new guys get into the air with small electrics and basic sailplanes. I feel I understand the feelings of new flyers and some of their reluctance to participate in ESL event.
I personally have no problem walking up to anyone at the ESL events and asking for help. But that would not have been true my first contest if I had not been teamed up with some of you as timers for my flights. I talked about that to other new flyers form months.
So, while I think I demonstrated yesterday that I still have a long way to go, I am well past the shy stage with all of you. My comments here are to address the original question about attendance and how to help draw in the new flyers.
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
aeajr on the forums
Long Island Silent Flyers |
Edited by - aeajr on 09/26/2005 11:04:22 AM |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 1:16:27 PM
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I personally get a lot of enjoyment out of both timing for sportsmen and being timed by sportsmen.
The more difficult is timing for the sportsment, because you want to help them, but you don't want to fly their plane by telling what to do all the time. I try to get a feel for what would help the particular sportsman I am timing for, and then limit myself to delivering that. I will say something like I believe the lift is further to the right, that he is circling too tightly for the particular lift conditions, but I refrain from saying go left, circle now, etc.. That's because I didn't really start learning propertly until I insisted on trying for myself.
Having a sportsman time for me is much easier. I will try to explain what I am doing, why I am doing it, what I am seeing, and then, of course use the timer as my eyes and ears. I do have to admit that I also enjou when the sportsman says "how did you know to go there", "I didn't think you could have pulled out of that one", "I would never go that far downwind", etc.
I guess I should make my willingness to work with sportsmen better known and then let them decide if they want to work with me.
Anker |
Edited by - Anker on 09/26/2005 1:18:46 PM |
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jsteifel
40 Posts |
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F3jeb
103 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 5:56:01 PM
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| I don't think we have to go that far, I think most people would be interested in plain MOM. Why fly something that is not fair, right? |
Edited by - F3jeb on 09/26/2005 5:57:23 PM |
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jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 6:36:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose
I don't think we have to go that far, I think most people would be interested in plain MOM. Why fly something that is not fair, right?
I didn't mean it wasn't fair, but it seems intersting.
Please see the ovss site. http://www.cincinnatisoaring.org/pfs_momg.htm
Jeff Steifel |
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Low contest turnout
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