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JimC
15 Posts |
 Posted - 12/05/2010 : 12:06:38 PM
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I am writing this with sadness, but I can no longer remain quiet.
This year was the time when a long (overly)and convoluted process was followed to open up the calendar and area for DLG contests. The process has been anything but "open" in both the discussion of the past as well as the implementation moving forward.
Test calendars, suggestions, and discussion have all been removed from these threads. Other clubs and areas are not able to easily join in on the conversations here due to a broken site.
There is a HUGE amount of activity still taking place in the HL community. ESL has had an opportunity to be a part of it, but the window is fading if not already past. New contests are forming in our newly expanded area, but they are not finding an open and easy process to mesh with the ESL. There are ideas and programs being implemented to help grow and support HL activity around the country, but ESL is barely a thought in the process. How many members of this group are aware of the F3K League? How about the State winner's trophy in another series of contests in the US? How about the fund raising efforts for the US F3K Team to travel next year? How about the GROWTH in pilot numbers for contests around the country? Contests that had growth LAST year are projected to grow again THIS year. How did we do last year? I think we all know.
So I simply ask. When will the conversations come out of the shadows? When will we have a open view of the current calendar or at least the plans? Why the delay, deletion and difficulty when NOW is the time to be doing this? The country is moving forward. The areas we have agreed to try including are moving forward. Is ESL?
I end with a question, much the same as one from Atlas Shrugged.
Who is Jeff Carr? |
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 08:58:47 AM
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Jimc,
I have read your note several times. I have to agree with some points about the calendar, but am not sure I understand the rest.
Note that my comments here are my own. I am no longer President, so I no longer speak for the ESL.
As far as the draft calendar, I have to agree with you. I think having it visible would be conducive to having more clubs look at adding their contests to the ESL calendar. Your note has been seen by the ESL officers.
BTW, if you know of a contest where the organizers might like to be included in the ESL schedule, please bring that information to Doug or Jose, the contest coordinator. The Contest Coordinator contact information is on the ESL main page. He will update them on open slots on the calendar.
If the prospective contest hosts want a high level understanding of what is involved in running an ESL contest, the lead story on the main page of the ESL web site is about running ESL contests. Since I wrote that piece, they can feel free to contact me to get my input as the President of a club that hosts three ESL contests each season.
Now for the confusion part
The process of expanding the calendar is the process by which ESL makes any major change. I don't see it as convoluted. The idea is offered up to the membership, they discuss it, and at the end of season business meeting it is voted upon. I see this as a pretty typical democratic process.
As to whether ESL is involved in programs and activates in other parts of the country, not that I know of. I don't think ESL is looking to be an national organization. However several of the ESL contests in 2010 were designated as qualifiers for the US team selection. It sounds like you are suggesting that the ESL have some specific involvement in the USA F3K league. What did you have in mind?
What I have written here are my own thoughts and opinions. I am not speaking for the ESL, just myself.
Atlas Shrugged, great book, I enjoyed it a lot.
edited: - original was too long. |
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
Long Island Silent Flyers
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Edited by - aeajr on 12/21/2010 4:59:05 PM |
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JimC
15 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2011 : 3:05:51 PM
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Hi Ed. I have read this post and your original reply many times. I cannot help but feel frustrated and angry every time I visit this forum. I owe you a reply, and this is all I can keep civil at this time.
"The process of expanding the calendar is the process by which ESL makes any major change. I don't see it as convoluted. The idea is offered up to the membership, they discuss it, and at the end of season business meeting it is voted upon. I see this as a pretty typical democratic process."
The idea to open the calendar was mine. I proposed it at the EOS meeting in 2009!!!!!! It was so summarily rejected that it did not even make the minutes of the meeting. Then I spent the next YEAR lobbying the HL director and encouraging the conversation. The majority of that was in private email among the gendarme. In public you stated how this needed to be discussed and voted on and the effort took a YEAR. During that year, ESL HL division DECLINED while the nation grew. Now we passed some proposals. Fantastic. Except for the fact that the very people that were against the idea still have the real control over any growth and the conversation was pulled offline as soon as someone even dared to question the mighty OZ.
Keep in mind that all my efforts along with those of many over the past year were done on a VOLUNTARY basis and were not paid. On top of that I put the effort in without any title or the need for one. The ONLY motivation was to see ESL support and be part of the potential in HLG activity. My comments here are not intended to take ANYTHING away from the effort of Doug. He was the tip of the spear in dealing with the administratium (worlds heaviest substance and known to oppose any change reaction) and he did a fantastic job. I would have been up a clock tower.
So at this time, for personal sanity, I will devote my time, effort and finances to supporting national activities. I will be in two contests over the next two months. One is a second anniversary contest that has 45 registered pilots. The other is a fourth year contest with 41 registered as of today. Kind of makes you wonder why there is such a struggle in ESL........
I really hope the powers that be figure it out. It is too bad that as of right now, it appears that I have to wait until June to have an ESL contest available to me. I know there are lots of local pilots that lament that fact. Think of all the members that are likely to lose half a year or more. If this is not the case, perhaps having the calendar plan available would be a good idea. I know of local pilots making plans for travel. If a local contest shows up that will be that many fewer to support it because they are already set to go where the action is.
Is ANY of this starting to get through as to why we need to be AWARE of the world OUTSIDE of ESL? I took time and effort to talk up ESL in open forum discussion and was told that this organization was irrelevant for HL activity. I defended it. I guess this year will show if they were right.
Has anyone figured out who Jeff Carr is yet? |
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2011 : 01:08:27 AM
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Jim,
If you have a problem with me, then you should be pleased that I am no longer the President. But I am not the ESL, I am just me.
Jeff Carr? No. Is this some special historical figure that I should recognize? I initially thought you meant John Gault who is refferenced often in that novel. But Jeff Carr? I can't recall this character in the story. So why not tell us what you are trying to say. Clarity is always best.
I don't understand your frustration with the change process.
Does the NFL change the rules mid season? No!
Does Baseball change the rules mid season? No!
Do any major sports organizations change the rules mid season, except for matters of player safety? No!
So why would you expect the ESL to be any different?
As I said, I agree with you about seeing the calendar in progress. It would be nice, but it should not be an inhibitor. Anyone can contact the contest coordinator to disuss contest dates. Do you know of any club or contest that contacted the ESL and the ESL refused to discuss dates with them? We have more open slots than ever!
If you know of a HL contest that could go onto the ESL calendar in April or May or at any time during the April to November season, suggest to the CD that they bring it forward. If there are clubs or organizations who would like to get their events on the ESL schedule all they have to do is contact the contest coordinator to discuss open dates.
The ESL season begins in April. With the expanded region the more southern states would certainly have good weather in April.
Like you, all of our efforts are done on a Voluntary basis. I talk up the ESL on the forums too as do a lot of other people. I talk it up in HL, in TD and even on the non soaring sites as many of those folks fly gliders too. I appreciate your effort on behalf of the ESL but you are not the only one out there talking things up.
However I continue to be confused by some of your statements such as,
"Is ANY of this starting to get through as to why we need to be AWARE of the world OUTSIDE of ESL? "
Clearly you want something to be done, but I don't know what it is. Can you just come out and say it? What does "being AWARE" mean to you and what do you think ESL should be doing, other than posting our calendar in progress?
We expanded the territory, we expanded the calendar and we will have two end of season meetings next year. What is it that you are looking for the ESL to do?
You stated that, "the people who are against it" as if there were people working against the new initatives. I am not aware of any such group. I was at the meeting where these measures were voted on and passed and they were passed with strong support.
I don't recall any opposition. What are you talking about?
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Best regards,
Ed Anderson
Long Island Silent Flyers
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Edited by - aeajr on 01/02/2011 01:25:45 AM |
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2011 : 6:00:27 PM
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BTW, HL contest calendar in progress has been posted:
http://forums.flyesl.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=412
So far there are 14 HL contests on the schedule. I beleive that is two more than last year, so far.
I have been posting notices all over the place to see if we can get some more contests on the calendar. |
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
Long Island Silent Flyers
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Edited by - aeajr on 01/03/2011 12:55:12 PM |
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JimC
15 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2011 : 5:41:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by aeajr
BTW, HL contest calendar in progress has been posted:
http://forums.flyesl.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=412
So far there are 14 HL contests on the schedule. I beleive that is two more than last year, so far.
I have been posting notices all over the place to see if we can get some more contests on the calendar.
False advertising. There are SEVEN contests listed for HL. Some of them will be run as two single day events. Any one that wishes to be included on the F3K Tour will have to also recognize another format that is a single contest format. In open discussion, what defines a "contest" may or may not be the same as what you posted. Are you familiar with the F3K Tour?
Getting a handle on what it takes to GROW a contest will be important. If you want to grow participation and encourage pilots to travel in to support you, they will be MUCH less likely to do that for a ONE DAY CONTEST. So start recalibrating to contest WEEKENDS and be aware that some of the big ones will go to a THREE DAY format this year.
FYI |
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JimC
15 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2011 : 9:36:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by aeajr
BTW, HL contest calendar in progress has been posted:
http://forums.flyesl.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=412
So far there are 14 HL contests on the schedule. I beleive that is two more than last year, so far.
I have been posting notices all over the place to see if we can get some more contests on the calendar.
duplicate |
Edited by - JimC on 01/03/2011 9:38:52 PM |
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josh_glaab
50 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2011 : 1:09:41 PM
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Hi Jim,
Please call me asap.
Daytime: (757)864-1159
Evening: (757)850-3971
Cell: (757)771-1073.
I kind of view e-mail/web postings as having limited value.
Thanks, Josh.
ESL President. |
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2011 : 1:36:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jimc
quote:
Originally posted by aeajr
BTW, HL contest calendar in progress has been posted:
http://forums.flyesl.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=412
So far there are 14 HL contests on the schedule. I beleive that is two more than last year, so far.
I have been posting notices all over the place to see if we can get some more contests on the calendar.
False advertising. There are SEVEN contests listed for HL. Some of them will be run as two single day events. Any one that wishes to be included on the F3K Tour will have to also recognize another format that is a single contest format. In open discussion, what defines a "contest" may or may not be the same as what you posted. Are you familiar with the F3K Tour?
Getting a handle on what it takes to GROW a contest will be important. If you want to grow participation and encourage pilots to travel in to support you, they will be MUCH less likely to do that for a ONE DAY CONTEST. So start recalibrating to contest WEEKENDS and be aware that some of the big ones will go to a THREE DAY format this year.
FYI
Two single day contests, a common format, is two contests. You can attend one day or both days. And they are counted as two contests in the ESL standings. I have not attended any ESL listed HL contests that were 2 day contests.
I was not aware that any of the contests on the calendar were two day contests. Thanks for letting me know. Which ones are those?
Since the calendar is in development the details are not yet released but if you can enlighten me that will help me better understand the schedule.
Thanks. |
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
Long Island Silent Flyers
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Edited by - aeajr on 01/05/2011 1:40:41 PM |
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2011 : 08:07:06 AM
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Jim,
You have me going on this Atlas Shrugged reference to Jeff Carr. The only Jeff Carr I know flies out of North Carolina. Is this who you are talking about? It just dawned on me.
Ed
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Best regards,
Ed Anderson
Long Island Silent Flyers
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Edited by - aeajr on 01/06/2011 08:08:36 AM |
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JimC
15 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 12:06:26 PM
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Josh,
Thanks for taking the time to talk with me on the phone. Hopefully we have a better understanding of each others points of view. I am continuing to work on this in the back ground. I fully intend to make use of my travel and competition this year to build the networks required to support a smoother process in the future.
Ed,
The person mentioned is a CD that tried to coordinate a southern contest with ESL. He was unable to easily communicate with the contest coordinator. He went off of what he could see and sanctioned a contest on Father's Day. Due to field use, scheduling and so forth, he will be on the same weekend as a new contest this year. That will keep his contest off the ESL calendar this year. He will also pull much of the potential pilot roster for a Maryland contest. It is unfortunate but is the reality. It is not Jeff's fault, he did everything he could. It is hard enough to work all the logistics to run a contest. The MARKS club also did nothing wrong. It was a communication/coordination issue.
Jeff is one of the people in the HL world that has created a way of making energy. (Much like John Galt) He is the motor behind a contest that could have been an easy fit into our new area. The awareness of him and many others in this new endeavor to build a league system is one of the keys to success. |
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josh_glaab
50 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2011 : 8:57:07 PM
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Hi Jim and co.
Yes it was very good to talk to you as well and I was able to remember that we had dinner together during the ESL EOS.
Just to reiterate some of the points made. Recall that the ESL has been in business for 32 years and some of the thoughts being kicked around in the newly-emerging DHLG area have already been considered.
One of those topics is the part about the 2 day vs 2 separate 1 day events. Having two separate contests gives a pilot 2 shots per weekend to have a good score. Recall that in a two day event an unforeseen equipment failure could essentially turf an entire weekend whereas the same snafu would only cost one day of two. We take the top 6 scores for the year.
The overall mantra for the ESL is show up. All of our decisions are usually based on that philosophy. Our reasoning is that two separate 1 day contests would induce more to invest their time and money to show up.
Regarding the minimum number of contestants, we too used to have a 20 pilot knim for scores to count. However, when we had some contests come up a little short, the folks whoe were "screwed" where the pilots who showed-up. In order to facilitate more smaller contests, we dropped the 20 pilot min.
Lastly, the LSF-style scoring system, again it would tend to compromise smaller contests. For example if a pilot wants to earn a lot of points, but does not have the time to go to many events, he would select the larger events and by-pass the smaller ones.
As noted above, the ESL is about showing up and going to many different contests. As a result we decided to have 2 single day events with no pilot minimum. We do require that the contests are advertised well in advance so all can try to attend.
I hope to see you flying soon....as soon as mom nature gives us a break.
Thanks, Josh.
ESL President. |
Edited by - josh_glaab on 01/11/2011 8:58:32 PM |
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ljb0001
37 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2011 : 12:21:05 PM
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One more point regarding the two-day contest vs one-day contest issue.
While the ESL philosophically prefers and encourages 2 separate 1 day contests per weekend, the final decision as to the format of the event is up to the CD. The ESL rules allows for any CD to choose to run his event as 2 day single contest. The only requirement ESL imposes is that the CD publish the contest is a 2 day contest in the registration information on the ESL web site.
If a CD chooses to run an event as a single 2 day contest, the contest results will be counted twice towards the ESL championship. In other words, every ESL weekend will result in two scores towards the championship. If the weekend is run as two 1 day contests then each contest is counted separately. The scores from a 2 day contest will be repeated and reported as if two separate contest had been run with identical results.
Luis |
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JimC
15 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 9:44:31 PM
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Luis,
Thank you for the clarification. I have always found you to be a clear and concise communicator and I really appreciate your input. I have only met you a couple of times but wanted to say thanks.
The number of days in a contest is less of an issue than what it takes to build interest and excitement. I hope that some of the CDs in traditional contests can use some of the input I have provided. If it is not of use or interest, I understand and am not offended. This will be my final post in this thread as I think the issue has been completely framed, even if it is not resolved. As a last piece of information I will post a link to a thread of interest to ESL. It is about a contest being held in South Carolina. Please note the dates, marketing and the people committing to this contest already. Also note where they are from.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1374079
In closing I will say that I wish we had some of this California weather back home. I just finished flying in the John Erickson Memorial with 36 other pilots. The east coast had four pilots here total. It was 80 and sunny. The air out here is different and a blast to fly in. Wish you were all with me. The US F3K team had a strong showing and the pilot roster read like a who is who in the gliding world. There were not only well known F3K pilots but also guys that mainly fly F3B and F3J. All had a blast. I was really happy to get the score I did and want to thank Phil B for the help this weekend.
See you on the field.
Shane! You are up dude!!! 4.....3......2......1....... :)
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