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flyeslhost
158 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2005 : 12:54:10 PM
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Sent on Sunday, September 25, 2005 at 07:44 PM
At this time 79 responses have been received out of 169
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flyeslhost
158 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 4:12:53 PM
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[moved from open discussion]
Frank has some good ideas that are worth discussing;
1)Mentor program.
This is the best idea of all. I was very lucky when I attended my first ESL contest. I just happened to park next to Jack Cash when I arrived. We started talking and he offered to time for me for the contest. Jack Cash at that time was ESL president and a top expert flyer. That first contest began a three year relationship where Jack and I attended almost every ESL contest together and timed together. So I started my ESL career with a mentor. There is no better way to learn the art of RC soaring.
We need a system that will cause this sort of relationship to happen. The natural tendency of an expert is to seek other experts to time with. In fact ther is often a game that is played out at many ESL contests. Some experts have a regular timer that they pair off with whenever they both attend the same contest. But if such a regular timer is not available then the game is to hook up with a good timer ASAP. Sometimes this involves finding different people for different rounds when flight groups are assigned. If you watch closely you may see experts huddling during the pilots meeting to compare "dance cards" and set up timing arrangements. Experts do this because a good timer often makes all the difference. Either because he can spot air or at least you know he mess up the timing count. Of course this tendency for experts to time for and with other experts doesn't do much to help the newer pilots. Fortunately, I think there are ways to break this tendency.
A deal could be struck; The expert agrees to pair off with a sportsman level pilot, not just for one contest but for at least a series of contests. perhaps the agreement would be that the two would attend at least three weekends together the following season. Presumably the sportsman would be a guy who previously only attended his own club's contest. The benefit to the expert would be the satisfaction of helping a develop some new talent and increasing contest attendance. This would motivate me to move away from the comfort of always selecting an expert timer. If I could find a sportsman who currently only attends one or two ESL contests a year and who I was compatable with then I would not mind returning the favor that I recieved from Jack Cash so many years ago.
Pairing off for a season would be ideal. You would likely sit together at the field and could discuss stuff between rounds. The expert would be far more likely to be inspired to help set up the guys airplane, maybe even flying it a bit to see that it is reasonably set up. Perhaps it would be difficult to find compatable pairings of people but the committment from a sportsman level flyer to attend a full schedule of contests might just motivate some expert to give it a try.
2) Lunch time clinic.
I'm not sure about the clinic during lunch but I think the winches could be open during lunch for practice flying. An unoficial help session could happen. Experts who eat fast or who could grab a bite between rounds could offer to help trim planes and do demo flights during lunch. I can imagine an expert flyer discussing ground signs of lift and then having a sportsman launch and be coached into the area of suspected lift.
3)I did a raffle like this some years ago at the CASA Open. The tickets were given away in the order of placing in the contest. First place got one ticket, second place got two tickets......thirtieth place got 30 tickets. So the prizes were almost sure to go to the novices.
6) Mixing sportsmen with experts in some rounds.
This is a case where you (Frank and other LISF sportsmen) need to get out more. LISF is the only contest that does the seeded man on man format where sportsmen are segregated from experts in different flight groups. I agree that mixing that has its benefits. Sometimes at LISF it can be hard to time for a sportsman because nobody in the group finds or marks air to direct them to (all the other guys in the group are sportsmen also and the groups are small so nobody blunders into lift).
Your coments about people avoiding club meetings or avoiding the club's ESL contest so that aren't asked to help out are interesting and enlightening. There is one obvious answer though; you need to attend some other ESL contests. When you are a visitor to the field then no one expects you to help run anything. You pay your dues by helping out with your own club's contest and then go enjoy yourself at the other contests.
One new idea of my own:
We should encourage "tag alongs". This would be where a sportsman is invited to go out and observe a flyer with his timer. The timer and/or pilot could explain what they are doing during the flight. "The wind just shifted that way so I'm following the vector" etc.
Phil |
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gldrgidr
22 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 8:26:19 PM
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I believe that in the old days they didn't have the Radiocarbon art thermal DVD's so finding thermals was a mysterious art.
The two areas that most people need help, are launching higher and spot-landing.
Launching and landing clinics would help.
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jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 10:49:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gldrgidr
I believe that in the old days they didn't have the Radiocarbon art thermal DVD's so finding thermals was a mysterious art.
The two areas that most people need help, are launching higher and spot-landing.
Launching and landing clinics would help.
I think there is need for more than that. I know there is need for more than that.
I think Mike and Tom are the two who can answer the launch the best. They have the best understanding of the engineering behind it. I launch well, but have problems setting it up myself at times.
Landings... thats a no brainer... Its Tom.
But I would like to say Tom's planes land the way they do because they weigh less. Mikes too. Landing technigue changes with Mass. You just can't dork a heavy airplane, you will break it.
I am willing to help out at a Clinic, it wasn't long ago I came up through the ranks.I remember the little ah ha's that I learned along the way. Maybe we can take Tom, Mike, Josh, Phil, Tony do one contest clinic during 2006 on Saturdays after the contest and during lunch we could have disucssions after eating, for about 15 minutes. It can cover the same topic from a different point of view or go off on a new topic, just sharing info.
You never stop learning, I haven't.
Also maybe we can help Tom and run a clinic at the same time. Tom is going to the Worlds again, and maybe we can tow his airplanes up as part of the clinic, to give back to Tom while he gives to us. I would be willing to Tow, and we could show how using an F3J tow can show you whether your plane is setup well or not.
Believe it or not the towers can tell you more about a setup then you can sometimes.
Jeff Steifel |
Edited by - jsteifel on 09/27/2005 10:53:11 PM |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 7:24:20 PM
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The montoring suggestions are the ones I am most excited about. I am lucky to buth being able to mentor and to mentoring.
Just last weekend I had the opportunity to do both.
I thoroughly enjoyed both timing for and being timed by Ed Anderson and Pete Nicholson. They are both much better pilots than their results suggest. When they have the financial means and opportunity to get planes that match their skills they will both do really well. They will start off doing better, just because the planes are better, but eventually they will both get the confidence to venture further in search of thermals. I also love the attitudes of both. They fly and compete to enjoy themselves. They are also great timers, paying attention to what is going on around them. They appear to enjoy my commentary about my own flying.
I deeply appreciate Tom asking me to time for him, and his assumption that he would time for me in return. I wasn't sure that he was assuming that, and had secured myself another timer. I also appreciate his comments of praize and support a couple of times I pushed myself really hard to stay in the running. I am not too experienced for any of that and there's still a ton to learn.
For me, most of the game is mental. I have a great primary plane and an identical backup. I have to have fire in my belly to do well. Saturday I just didn't have it because of the wind. Sunday I did, and I was disappointed when I could not hang on to my 2nd place after round 5.
I hope sportsmen appreciate what I can do for them and will pay a lot more attention to opportunities to help and mentor in the future. I also appreciate the metoring and encouragement that Tom, Josh and John have given me.
Lets decide how we will formalize the program, I am 100% behind it!
Anker |
Edited by - Anker on 09/28/2005 7:25:48 PM |
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Phil Barnes
100 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 8:31:20 PM
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I think many will agree that some form of mentoring is a good idea. We need to encourage people to step out of their comfort zones and do it. Experts are comfortable with pairing off with other experts. I'm guessing that sportsmen see this and are afraid to ask an expert to time and even when they do ask they are told that a committment has already been made to time for someone else.
I don't see a way to formalize this with rules though. It just needs to become a prevailing or at least common attitude. I think you need a deeper relationship between the expert and the sportsman, deeper than just a single flight. If an expert is timing for a sportsman for just one flight then his attitude is likely to be just one of getting by without a major disaster. You aren't familiar with the sportsman's capabilities. You don't know how he will react to a suggestion to follow some lift downwind for instance. So you play it safe and just try to keep the guy out of the woods. You need to pair guys off for a longer time, at least for multiple contests. But to do that you need to determine who his compatable with who.
Anker, it sounds like you have found at least two sportsmen who you work well with and who you feel have potential worth developing. You don't need a formal system imposed on you by the ESL. Make an offer to one or both of those guys. You agree to mentor one of them next season. In return they agree to attend a few contests away from Long Island. Why not arrange to meet up with your student and have them travel with your CRRC group next season? I can sweeten the pie a bit. If you were to call/email me and say that you have made such an arrangement with a sportsman for next season I would be very motivated to offer a great deal on a Mantis/Supra kit for that sportsman. Between the CRRC group and perhaps his fellow LISF fliers (Lenny?) I'm sure he could find the help and advice needed to have it built for next season. You have an extra sportsman flier in mind who is showing potential, why not try to find another expert to pair him off with for next season?
It sounds like Tom Kiesling is attempting to set up the End of Season Open this year in such a way as to promote mentoring. I'll bet that some pairings could be made that weekend. If a sportsman were shopping for an expert to pair off with I can offer some advice that would help you to make a good impression. I would be favorably impressed by a guy who showed a real committment to putting out the effort needed to improve his flying skills. Such an effort would involve attending as many ESL contests as possible next season. Such an effort would include the willingness to build a new plane if needed and spend some money for equipment, like servos for instance. I think I can make a contribution to the effort by offering a good deal on a kit but you can't just give the guy everything, he needs to show a real committment of the sort of time and money that it takes to stay with the effort for the long haul.
So does anybody see merit with this sort of approach? Am I just dreaming again? Would any sportsmen fliers come to the EOS Open and attempt to form a relationship with an expert mentor? If I come to the EOS Open with an open attitude will I find sportsmen there with the desire to improve and a willingness to attend a few new contests next season?
If this concept were to work then we could change the entire attitude within the ESL. Instead of just chanting "move him up" when a sportsman shows the potential to finish well in a contest perhaps people would start looking to pair the guy off with an expert mentor. Perhaps the experts would strat keeping an eye out for sportsmen with potential and pair off with them or try to hook them up with someone else.
I don't see a good way to institute a formal ESL rule or procedure to make this happen. Perhaps there could be some sort of end of season award or recognition for the most improved sportsman or for a mentor/student pair.
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 9:00:04 PM
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Phil,
I pretty much agree with everything you wrote. An attitude is much better than a rule, and if many of us set a good example, then I'm sure others will follow suit.
Not everybody is a good mentor. One thing is helping, hinting, encouraging. Quite another is flying the sportsman's plane through left, right, straight commands, which was a problem for me when I was a sportsman and some experts timed for me. I try to say "I think the lift is further left, notice how it is going up more at that side of the circle", "looks like you have it cored", "you don't seem to be going up as you are circling" instead.
One thing I can't explain is how I recognize lift. Sometimes it is very obvious, many other times its just gut feel. I do not subscribe to the "speeding up", "lifting of the tail", etc. as universal truths. I think it is a matter of practice and not something that can be read out of a cookbook.
Your point about consistency is a good one. Certainly timing for each other through a contest weekend has great value. Since most sportsmen go to a limited number of contests being a season mentor may be more difficult, but that just means that one expert can mentor more than one sportsman.
So here's an offer: I plan to attend LASS, LISF I, LISF II, DBSF, CRRC, and ESL EOS next season. I am trying to get a group to go to CASA, and I would like to support SJSF, but can't promise. If you are a sportsman and you want me to be your mentor/timer at one of these contests (probably not CRRC since I'll probably CD and co-CD there), just let me know, and I'll plan to pair up with you. If this offer can get a sportsman to attend some away contests, then we have achieved our purpose.
So Ed and Pete, what do you say? Especially given Phil's offer!
Thanks again, Phil.
Anker |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 9:03:07 PM
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I forgot to mention that mentoring shouldn't necessarily be an expert and a sportsman. There's plenty of spread among the experts, so an expert/expert mentor/mentored makes just as much sense.
Anker |
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Phil Barnes
100 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 07:58:50 AM
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Anker and I are on exactly the same page. Many of his comments were in my mind also, I had not posted them since my posts are too long anyway.
I have been timing with Tom Kiesling lately. That timing relationship has been a mentoring situation. There is still a great deal that I can learn from Tom. That is my biggest hesitation in setting up a mentoring relationship with a sportsman. That is one thing that I meant when I said that you need to get some experts out of their comfort zone if you want them to mentor a sportsman.
Timing style is very important as Anker points out. I have been on both ends of the mentoring situation quite a bit. Both in unlimited class and in hand launch. We could easily do an entire topic on this point and maybe we should. The mentor and student need to learn each other's tendencies and styles. The biggest and most common problem that comes up is that when the mentor starts talking, the student frequently stops thinking and becomes a robot. As Anker points out, the situation soon becomes one where the mentor is attempting to fly the plane by voice commands. A balance needs to be struck where the mentor offers advice and teaching without the student shutting his own brain down. I have commonly had the experience (at hand launch contests mostly) where I time for a guy who is quite good and does quite well already but after the round I know that he would have done better had I not timed for him. This is because I was talking too much and offering too much information and he had stopped thinking for himself and reading the air that he was flying through. The student (remember I have been on the student end of the relationship quite recently so I'm talking about myself here too) naturally thinks of the mentor as being so much better than he is that the mentor should just be able to tell the student where to fly and the rest should be easy. The truth is that the pilot on the sticks needs to get feedback from the plane that only the pilot on the sticks can see. If that flying pilot's mind is shut down and in robot mode then this information is lost. The flying pilot needs to be recognizing and responding to the subtle lift clues that only he can see. The tendency is that he overrides this information with what the mentor is saying or is just so distracted that he no longer even sees this information.
I could go on but this post is too long already. If mentoring relationships are developed then a discussion thread of this type would be very valuable to help people understand these situations.
I'll point out one other thing that many sportsmen might not guess to be true. A sportsman probably imagines that a top expert always knows where the lift is and so such an expert could just point and say "go fly over there and you'll get time". That is rarely the case. Sometimes they have a notion where the air might be nice but only a rough idea. Many times they launch and go do a search. They can succeeed doing such a blind search because they have the ability to quickly recognize lift when they fly through it. An expert is frequently very hesitant to try and point out where he thinks lift might be to someone else. If the lift is not exactly there or if the guy doesn't go quite deep enough then the outcome will likely be bad and everybody is unhappy. Had the expert been flying he would have quickly gone deeper or searched a wider area or gone to plan B and found enough lift to max. These problems are most prevalent in situations where the expert is just timing for or offering adbvice on a one time basis. In a mentoring situation the mentor can learn the capabilities and tendencies of the pilot and adjust his mentoring style to suit. |
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 09:17:41 AM
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Since I won't be at the EOS, put me down as being very strongly in favor of some mentoring guidelines, and as a committed, volunteer mentor.
I propose that we put up a page on the web site where volunteer mentors can make themselves available at specific contests. The idea is that someone can contact the mentor and get a commitment ahead of the contest. Hope you don't mind me volunteering you, Jose. The mentor could also include a short description of his style, strengths and weaknesses.
Anker |
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flyeslhost
158 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 1:14:56 PM
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Anker,
Anything I can do to help, just let me know.
I still haven't caught up with all the reading, but we could have a section on all the things a new comer can expect, how contest are ran, different type of contest format, what can they expect to hear at the contest meting, when do we brake for lunch why do we seam rushed on sundays... the little things that take a few contest to figure out.
Jose
Jose |
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Dave Walter
18 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 6:27:55 PM
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Phil's last post is dead on the money. You can't steer the pilot through a flight, and you need to become familiar with your student's capabilities. I tried to express this same idea in a post a couple days ago. I still think the learning process would be much easier and less stressful for the student if the mentoring was done on an off-weekend, not during a contest. Then you would both feel more free to try something new, predict where the lift is and go over there, etc. And if you fall out of the sky, so what? You just launch and try it again. You don't wait an hour for the next round.
At least, that's the way I would feel about it if I was a Sportsman. Maybe there are Sportsmen who are happy to take instruction no matter when it happens.
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 9:36:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by anker@ankersoft.com
Phil,
So Ed and Pete, what do you say? Especially given Phil's offer!
Thanks again, Phil.
Anker
What do I say? Anker, to have you as a mentor for a season would be just wonderful.
Phil, I hope I am able to take advantage of your offer.
Anker you have a great talent in this area. Both your coaching during my flights and your narration of your fights are so enlightening. There are many others who are also excellent. But you are definitely a great coach and guide. And I am glad to hear that my timing was OK. I never know if my reports on lift and pilots are helpful or distracting.
I don't know how much commitment I can make but I would definitely like to explore it. My greatest concern is that I will not be able to live up to my part of the bargain. That would be my ONLY hesitation!
I had wanted to fly RC planes since I was a child. LISF has given me a great gift in bringing me into the world of silent flight and soaring, a path I never sought. Now I can't get enough of it. And Pete has been one of my guides into this world of the silent ballet with the hawks.
Perhaps this photo essay I did on the subject, as part of two magazine colums I wrote for a while, will get the message across:
http://www.rcezine.com/cms/printpage.php?id=18
As is usually the case, time and money throttle passion, so I have done what I could with the resources available and the helpful guidance from the club.
I would love to advance, to get better at this. Soaring really is more fun than adults should be allowed to have! :)
Not only for my own sake, but to help the other new guys along. I quickly learned that you don't have to be a master to help the new guys, you just have to be far enough ahead of them to guide them into the sky. And I just love to help them get their wings, so to speak. After that, passion takes over or it doesn't!
Anker, let's talk about this. I am VERY interested.
Ed Anderson
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
aeajr on the forums
Long Island Silent Flyers |
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regis
2 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2005 : 5:10:21 PM
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I sent the following to esltalk before I joined 'forms':
I have asked for help and while most contest flyers are friendly, gracious and helpful, some are less so than others. Some of us do not posses Gordy's helpful personality.  He may get on some flyer's nerves but to a novice he is a godsend. Most novice flyers are going to be intimidated and running into someone who appears reluctant to help will be hugely discouraging (not fun). My experience was that often the person you seek help from feels he is not qualified (or as well qualified as some one else.) Every contest should have a designated 'Gordy' to refer a flyer seeking help. 
Regis |
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kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2005 : 5:35:04 PM
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One of the things I have learned over the years timing people of various skill levels is that each person is different
and requires a different style.
For someone who I don't know well, I find it difficult to time for them. I don't know what their expectations are, or
how much information they want. So usually the first time I call for them, I don't say much. I mentally note things that
they need to work on. After the flight, I ask them if they are open for some constructive critisism (they usually are) and
then I tell them some of the things they should look for or try. I usually try and limit it to the big things they need
to improve on and not try and flood them with information.
If it is a pilot with more experience I don't mind giving them pointers while they are flying. If I think I am overwhelming
them with information I usually shut up. Sometimes I get the impression the person is disapointed they did not max with
an expert calling for them. This often happens since quick reactions are often necessary when trying to core a thermal.
If there is a delay from when the instruction is given to when it is implimented/understood it can often be too late.
If this happens often, I find it can be better to let the person fly their flight and discuss it after they land.
With an "official" mentor program, I think the expectations and preferences can be discussed before the first flight takes
place. In other words, ground rules can be established. But I agree with Phil and Anker that formal rules for a program of
this time are probably not necessary and at this time may not be appropriate. After we get more experience with the program
and have some feed back, then we may develop some guidelines.
Tom |
Edited by - kiesling on 10/04/2005 7:24:27 PM |
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aeajr
477 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2006 : 12:35:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil Barnes
I think many will agree that some form of mentoring is a good idea. We need to encourage people to step out of their comfort zones and do it. Experts are comfortable with pairing off with other experts. I'm guessing that sportsmen see this and are afraid to ask an expert to time and even when they do ask they are told that a committment has already been made to time for someone else.
I don't see a way to formalize this with rules though. It just needs to become a prevailing or at least common attitude. I think you need a deeper relationship between the expert and the sportsman, deeper than just a single flight. If an expert is timing for a sportsman for just one flight then his attitude is likely to be just one of getting by without a major disaster. You aren't familiar with the sportsman's capabilities. You don't know how he will react to a suggestion to follow some lift downwind for instance. So you play it safe and just try to keep the guy out of the woods. You need to pair guys off for a longer time, at least for multiple contests. But to do that you need to determine who his compatable with who.
Anker, it sounds like you have found at least two sportsmen who you work well with and who you feel have potential worth developing. You don't need a formal system imposed on you by the ESL. Make an offer to one or both of those guys. You agree to mentor one of them next season. In return they agree to attend a few contests away from Long Island. Why not arrange to meet up with your student and have them travel with your CRRC group next season? I can sweeten the pie a bit. If you were to call/email me and say that you have made such an arrangement with a sportsman for next season I would be very motivated to offer a great deal on a Mantis/Supra kit for that sportsman. Between the CRRC group and perhaps his fellow LISF fliers (Lenny?) I'm sure he could find the help and advice needed to have it built for next season. You have an extra sportsman flier in mind who is showing potential, why not try to find another expert to pair him off with for next season?
It sounds like Tom Kiesling is attempting to set up the End of Season Open this year in such a way as to promote mentoring. I'll bet that some pairings could be made that weekend. If a sportsman were shopping for an expert to pair off with I can offer some advice that would help you to make a good impression. I would be favorably impressed by a guy who showed a real committment to putting out the effort needed to improve his flying skills. Such an effort would involve attending as many ESL contests as possible next season. Such an effort would include the willingness to build a new plane if needed and spend some money for equipment, like servos for instance. I think I can make a contribution to the effort by offering a good deal on a kit but you can't just give the guy everything, he needs to show a real committment of the sort of time and money that it takes to stay with the effort for the long haul.
So does anybody see merit with this sort of approach? Am I just dreaming again? Would any sportsmen fliers come to the EOS Open and attempt to form a relationship with an expert mentor? If I come to the EOS Open with an open attitude will I find sportsmen there with the desire to improve and a willingness to attend a few new contests next season?
If this concept were to work then we could change the entire attitude within the ESL. Instead of just chanting "move him up" when a sportsman shows the potential to finish well in a contest perhaps people would start looking to pair the guy off with an expert mentor. Perhaps the experts would strat keeping an eye out for sportsmen with potential and pair off with them or try to hook them up with someone else.
I don't see a good way to institute a formal ESL rule or procedure to make this happen. Perhaps there could be some sort of end of season award or recognition for the most improved sportsman or for a mentor/student pair.
This discussion was a long time ago, so I hold no one obligated to anything stated in this thread. It was just an idea.
Anker, are you still game?
Phil, what does a Mantis cost?
Most of my stuff now is leftovers, cast offs and third hand planes. If I am ever going to advance I need to get better equipment. If I am going to advance I need a guide, a mentor.
I think I can make an investmet, thought I still don't know how much it will take.
As you guys saw this past weekend, I am still flying that old Legend. It flies, even in the rain, it flies, but....
I don't think I can make all the mets but I should be able to do some of them.
Guys, it has been a long time since we discussed this, and if time and circumstances no longer make this an option, I completely understand. However, I have not stopped thinking about it for one second.
If you guys are still willing, I am too. No obligation!
I don't know how this will work but I am interested. If I am the first, then I can be the test subject. ( No needles please!) Others may follow.
Let me know.
Best regards,
Ed Anderson
aeajr on the forums
Long Island Silent Flyers
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Anker
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2006 : 6:39:49 PM
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Ed,
I most definitely am still game! And I am honored.
The Aegea is the best choice for price and value. The Supra next and then I would go for the Thermal Dancer.
Too bad I sold my backup Aegea a few weeks ago!
Anker |
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aeajr
477 Posts |
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Mentoring program: Phil Barns
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